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Author Topic: "...a nation to which Europe owes everything, for Egypt is responsible for..."  (Read 75974 times)

Offline Bison66

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Hey y'all,

I commend for your reading, the Intro to Diop's Civilization or Barbarism: An Authentic Anthropology.
You can check it out here (First Pages):
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1556520484/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=unitblacamer-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=1556520484

It is brief and it quickly summarizes the contents of the book - sort of a reader's guide.

Relevant to recent posts here:  Diop makes clear his objectives and clarifies what he is NOT claiming - in order to offset the Strawman Arguments of his critics.
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Offline Bison66

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Neymar,

It should also interest you to know that Diop cites the ancient Ethiopians' claim of parentage of the ancient Egyptians to prove that they were Black.

Forgot to mention that.

But why can't we trust the contemporary accounts of the ancient Greeks themselves?  So many of them went to study in Egypt that they would know for sure.  right?  Herodotus made it clear on more than one occasion that the Egyptians were "black-skinned" and had "wooly hair."

Really and truly, this is a settled issue for anyone who has delved into the subject.

We are waaaaaay past racist excuses, like.  "The figures in the temples are Black because they didn't have paint the right color to depict them as beige."   :lmao:

And, of course, within mere inches or feet of those Black figures are examples of many other colors which could have been used and, to boot, other races ARE depicted in other colors on the tomb walls - oftentimes as captives or visitors.
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Ancient Ethiopians also claimed(at least in my ethnic "tribe") that Animals that came around during a funeral was the spirit of the person that just died...I wouldnt be too quick to things my ancestors said a long time ago :lol:

Greeks called anybody darker than them black....and wooly hair is just as prevalent in Berberized peoples as black. The Roman scribe Tacitus even called the native Britons black when he went there. Old Britannia getting the royal treatment by the school African studies department now?

Neymar,

When I referred to Ancient Ethiopians, here is what I had in mind:

See the top of p. 7 of the Intro
http://www.amazon.com/Africans-Classical-Writers-African-Notebook/dp/0882580892


And All:
The "objective" adjudicators of this issue might be the ancient Greeks going back to Homer.

The ancient Greeks apparently applied the appellation "Ethiopia" to the Black people of much of northeast Africa and southwestern Asia, too. 

There is no lack of scholarly work on the subject:
http://www.kemetway.com/guide.html

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Offline Bison66

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Experts say the man on the left is a Kemetan (Ancient Egyptian) and the third from the left is a Nubian.

Pharoah, that palette of colors looks pretty varied and colorful to me.
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Offline PharoahNupe94

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 :popcorn:
I'm running low on popcorn  :lol:

Offline Bison66

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The more recent emergence of Afrocentric scholarship is really an echo and continuation of earlier work by pioneering scholars like Hansberry (Go Bison!  Altho he was hounded by the Negro scholars of his day at HU.) and the inimitable George G.M. James who wrote "STOLEN LEGACY" in 1954 - not to mention the Haitian scholar in the OP who wrote in the 19th Century.

In which Mr. James demonstrates, as he titles his first chapter, "Greek Philosophy is Stolen Egyptian Philosophy."

It is NOT an easy read, but even the casual reader skimming the first few pages here will be enlightened.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0865433623?tag=internetsacredte&camp=14573&creative=327641&linkCode=am1&creativeASIN=0865433623&adid=1HAEE684269CAMJMA5P7&&ref-refURL=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sacred-texts.com%2Fafr%2Fstle%2Findex.htm

You can read most of the book right here (with the original typos):
http://www.sacred-texts.com/afr/stle/index.htm

I like the new cover, also:


In many instances, James raises questions that had been ignored or pushed aside by most previous scholars re: the origins and education of the Greek philosophers who were accorded the credit for what they had "borrowed."  But he also lays the foundation for further scholarship which has backed up his assertions.

For the purposes of THIS thread, this excerpt is of special relevance:
Quote
Just as in our modern times, countries like the United States, England, and France are attracting students from all parts of the world, on account of their leadership in culture; so was it in ancient times, Egypt was supreme in the leadership of civilization, and students from all parts, flocked to that land, seeking admission into her mysteries or wisdom system.

The immigration of Greeks to Egypt for the purpose of their education, began as a result of the Persian invasion (525 B.C.), and continued until the Greeks gained possession of that land and access to the Royal Library, through the conquest of Alexander the Great. Alexandria was converted into a Greek city, a centre of research and the capital of the newly created Greek empire, under the rule of Ptolemies. Egyptian culture survived and flourished, under the name and control of the Greeks, until the edicts of Theodosius in the 4th century A.D., and that of Justinian in the 6th century A.D., which closed the Mystery Temples and Schools, as elsewhere mentioned. (Ancient Egypt by John Kendrick Bk. II p. 55; Sandford's Mediterranean World p. 562; 570).

Concerning the fact that Egypt was the greatest education centre of the ancient world which was also visited by the Greeks, reference must again be made to Plato in the Timaeus who tells us that Greek aspirants to wisdom visited Egypt for initiation, and that the priests of Sais used to refer to them as children in the Mysteries.

More later.
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« Last Edit: November 03, 2012, 02:12:02 AM by Bison66 »
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Offline Bison66

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There are a few people, for a variety of reasons and based on a variety of theories, who maintain that Barack Obama, our newly re-elected President (Just couldn't resist!) is NOT Black and, instead, that he is bi-racial or half-white.

Some maintain, citing science, that there is no such thing as "race" - usually when denying Black achievements or denying racism.  Yes, DNA reveals that there is very little difference between people, but..  

Of course, IMO these are a dodge, for whatever reason, to ignore the obvious.  Science also shows only slight differences between species of animals, but they can still be differentiated.

Most people realize that race is a human social construct subject to various definitions in different cultural settings.  But, by appearance, culture and social experience we can discern differences that in modern times we refer to as "race."



I mention Obama in THIS thread simply to make the point that for a variety of reasons, SOME scholars ignored obvious evidence & consciously and maliciously misinterpreted information to maintain the fiction that the Kemetans were not African and were not Black.

One of those reasons is what Molefi Asante calls, "the legacy of disbelief" that Blacks/African could NOT POSSIBLY have achieved what they did in ancient times.  Often IMO that disbelief has its root, branch and flower in overt or covert racism.

Van Sertima, in another context, recounts a conversation with a prominent archaeologist in which the white scholar, seeming to fear for his reputation, told him that he would identify as African some centuries-old skeletal remains found on the Pacific coast of South (or Central?) American IF THEY HAD BEEN DISCOVERED ANYWHERE ELSE!!!!  In other words, the bones were liars!!!!

One Egyptologist, Arthur Weigall, incredulously referred to ancient times as "that incredible epoch of ni%%er domination."


Here is a collection of wide-ranging statements, including that one, about the racial identity of the Kemetans:
http://www.nubianet.org/about/about_interpret3.html

Tell our children:  "Don't boo, learn!"   ;D
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« Last Edit: November 11, 2012, 12:09:31 PM by Bison66 »
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Offline Bison66

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Yesterday morning, Mrs. Bison66 and I went to the Arauz Anthropology Museum in Panama City to see the "King Tut" exhibit.
http://www.laestrella.com.pa/online/impreso/2012/10/03/una-cita-con-tutankhamun.asp

As Carter said when he opened the tomb, "AMAZING THINGS!!"

The young guide was well-informed and provided good - though not in depth - information.  A group of school children had just gone through ahead of us.

The enormity and longevity of the Kemetan civilization is what is most impressive.

Ramses was a baaaad Brother!!!

IS THERE ANOTHER CIVILIZATION begun in antiquity THAT LASTED AS LONG?
China, perhaps?

Had to buy an expensive coffee mug to add to my collection (from our travels) because it was made in Egypt, NOT China!!!
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Offline Bison66

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Of course, the influence of the philosophy, religious beliefs, technology, etc of the Kemetans (ancient Egyptians) was not limited to the Greeks, who THEMSELVES acknowledged that they:
- renamed the Kemetan gods,
- were STUDENTS of many subjects for DECADES in Kemet and
- expressed their boundless admiration for the Blacks across the sea.

Those early Greeks are NOT to be held accountable for their descendants' invasion of Egypt, the burning of some of the evidence of Kemetan GREATNESS at the Library of "Alexandria", OR the conscious and malicious theft of the intellectual property of their ancient teachers!!

OK!....end of tangent and back on topic:
Some of the religious beliefs, myths (or supernatural occurrences, depending upon one's perspective) of the Kemetans found their way into the beliefs and traditions of Christianity and Islam and perhaps Judaism, too.[/b]

NOTE:  My intention here is NOT to challenge/question anyone's religious beliefs or faith.  The study of history need NOT be a reason for friction or conflict based upon faith-based perspectives.
The recounting of history is ALWAYS a struggle between various perspectives (religious, economic, nationalistic, racial and otherwise).  The victors write the (mostly accepted) history, but that doesn't mean it is complete or accurate.

The current Afrocentric movement and THIS thread are devoted to reclaiming the "Stolen Legacy" of Black people by Europeans for their own glorification and to deny the achievements of Blacks - partially to justify treating Blacks as sub-humans.  THAT is the critical importance of this work.


So........
In an discussion of whether or not Jesus of Nazareth was in actuality a Black man (NO ONE really believes, Do they?, that he had blond hair and blue eyes as European artists depicted him many centuries after his death), we discover much:

Quote
MAAT: Okay, just who was Jesus?

Geoghagen: That is a very difficult question to answer, for Jesus was and still is many things to many people. To Christians he is a part of the Godhead, the Son of God, the Son of Man, the Prince of Peace, the Word made flesh, the messiah of Jewish expectations. Hence, through his trials, sufferings, temptations, death and resurrection, He provides for the remission of sins, redemption and life eternal for those who follow his teachings and accept him as their personal savior.

To me, he is one of the world's 16 crucified saviors -- the last of them, I might add - whose lives fit an almost identical pattern from the time of Horus in 4100 B.C. (according to the most ancient beliefs, he was the first crucified savior) to the time of Judas Christas (Christ the anointed) in the pre-Christian era. In essence, the life that Jesus purportedly led, the activities in which he engaged, his teachings, his trials and sufferings and eventual death and resurrection, are identical* to those of Horus and Osiris (two ancient Egyptian gods) and the other 14 crucified saviors. This point of view or revelation, though potentially shocking to the mass of believers, is nevertheless common knowledge to scholars.

So Jesus and the belief system that he represents are thus a reappearance of one of the most beautiful ideas of the ancient black Africans of Ta-Merry - now called Egypt - which represented the eternal Father by the ever- coming Son, as in the Child Horus. This was the child of a mother who was the eternal virgin. The doctrines of the Incarnation, i.e., the word made flesh: the virgin birth, the resurrection, the Father-God who is identical to his own son and other doctrines (believed to be specifically Christian) were Egyptian long before there was even the concept of Adam and Eve, Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

MAAT: Are you saying that Christianity as a religion had its origins in ancient Egypt?

Geoghagen: Yes. In addition to what I have just stated, in the Eschatology of the Egyptians is found a trinity and a unity, and the Egyptians believed in punishment as well as everlasting happiness. Not surprisingly, then, the doctrine of everlasting life and the belief in the resurrection of the "Spiritual Body" are, according to Dr. Albert Churchward(author of Signs and Symbols of Primordial Man, Origins of Freemasonry, The Origin And Evolution of Religion, The Origin And Evolution of The Human Race, etc.) "the brightest and most prominent features of the Egyptian religion, and this we find was their belief before the time of the first king of the first dynasty." The general teachings and cosmological world view of the Egyptians eventually filtered down and provided the foundation for later so-called 'Western Religions,' i.e., Judaism, Christianity and Islam. This point is thoroughly documented by the brilliant and prolific African scholar, Dr. Josef ben-Jochannan, in an epic work, African Origins of the Major Western Religions.
http://www.melanet.com/clegg_series/wasjesusblack.html

*For me, "identical" is too strong a word, but my limited reading in this area does show remarkable parallels.  Identical in theme, perhaps, but not identical in description.

Comments?
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« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 02:24:12 PM by Bison66 »
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Offline Bison66

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With little or no publicity and certainly no fanfare, there are groups in various parts of the country educating Black kids re: more accurate history.

Their slogan:  "It is Better to Build a Child Than to Repair an Adult"

If you are in or close to Philadelphia this weekend you can attend the regional conference of the Association for the Study of Classical African Civilizations (ASCAC).

Quote
ASCAC was established at the First Annual Ancient Egyptian Studies Conference in Los Angeles, CA in 1984.

Founding Members: Jacob Carruthers, Maulana Karenga, Leonard Jeffries, Asa G. Hilliard, III, John Henrik Clarke, Yosef Ben Jochannan, Anderson Thompson and Nzinga Ratibisha Heru.

The goal of ASCAC is to bring together scholars, thinkers, planners, artists, students, scientists, and technicians to promote and restore our ancient African heritage through research, education, creative productions and spiritual development. ASCAC, through its annual regional and national conferences, publications, and international educational tours promotes a Pan African discussion of world history, historical identity, purpose and direction.

ASCAC is for African People Worldwide

Info on the conference here:  http://library.constantcontact.com/download/get/file/1102716750185-916/ASCAC+Mid-Atl+Conf+2012.pdf
(Or you can access the info at: http://africangenesis2.org/)

This group  offers a program for FREE trips to Africa for youngsters and adults.  "Free" in exchange for work and fund-raising.

EDIT:  I should have mentioned that this group has sent THOUSANDS of kids to Africa.

You may have to be in NYC for that option, although you may be able to pay if you are interested in going:  http://africangenesis2.org/visit-africa-free/program-information/
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« Last Edit: November 26, 2012, 02:05:46 PM by Bison66 »
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Offline PharoahNupe94

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You're pouring it on Bison66  ;D
A little more then somebody head is going to explode  :lol:

Offline Bison66

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It's time to highlight from the OP the essence of the argument being made here:

Quote
"If we could prove, on the basis of recent advances in our knowledge of history, that the Egyptian people were not a White race, as so many have constantly maintained through rigid adherence to systems of thought and retrospective pride ever since Egyptology the overwhelming importance of this ancient nation, what further argument could be mustered to salvage the doctrine of the inequality of the races? The answer is, none.

In that context, here is an outline - merely an outline - of the evidence indicating that the Kemetans were indeed Black people:

Quote
Many Black scholars have presented the Africentric view on the "race" of the Ancient Egyptians. Their research has triggered a reevaluation of certain assumptions. For example, most Black Africans do not have thick lips and broad noses. There are four distinct Black African physical types. All were part of the Ancient Egyptian population. Secondly Ancient Egyptian drawings were largely conventional. This means that they clearly had a symbolic meaning that was not true to form. For example, the traditional reddish brown color used to portray all men (no matter what their true skin tone) may have represented the African "blood of life" concept. For religious purposes, Black Africans have painted their bodies red or reddish brown from time immemorial.

Therefore, one should not reach hard and fast conclusions about Egyptian ethnicity based on the color used in the tomb and pyramid drawings. Furthermore, even if the colors are accurate depictions of the people, a number of indigenous, unmixed Africans, like the Pygmies, have reddish brown skin tone. Yet no one would deny that these are "Black" African people. In light of this, if the Ancient Egyptians were indeed of reddish brown skin color, they were of the same color as modern Pygmies.

As many writers in the guestbook have attempted to explain, the original Black Egyptians were mixed with invading Libyans, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Turks, Arabs and Western Europeans. This explains the genetic status of the modern Egyptian, who does not resemble his Black African forebears.

To truly determine the Ancient Egyptian "race," one must consider the full range of linguistic cultural, anatomical, archaeological and genetic evidence. One recent, nonblack scholar, Richard Poe ("Black Spark: White Fire: Did African Explorers Civilize Ancient Europe") (Prima Publishing, Rocklin, CA), has done just that and has reached the following conclusion: "Were the Egyptians black? That is entirely up to...you. But were they biologically African? It would seem that they were."

We, of course, believe that the Ancient Egyptians were Black Africans and the following is a synopsis of some of the evidence that supports our view:

Evidence from Physical Anthropology


The skeletons and skulls of the Ancient Egyptians clearly reflect that they were a Negroid people with features very similar to those of modern Black Nubians and other people of the Upper Nile and of East Africa.
 
Melanin Dosage Test

Egyptologist Cheikh Anta Diop invented a method for determining the level of melanin in the skin of human beings. When conducted on Egyptian mummies in the Museum of Man in Paris, this test indicated that these remains were of Black people.
 
Osteological Evidence

"Lepsius canon," which distinguishes the bodily proportions of various racial groups categories the "ideal Egyptian" as "short-armed and of Negroid or Negrito physical type."
 
Evidence From Blood Types

Diop notes that even after hundreds of years of inter-mixture with foreign invaders, the blood type of modern Egyptians is the "same group B as the populations of western Africa on the Atlantic seaboard and not the A2 Group characteristic of the white race prior to any crossbreeding."
 
The Egyptians as They Saw Themselves

"The Egyptians had only one term to designate themselves =kmt= the negroes (literally). This is the strongest term existing in the Pharaonic tongue to indicate blackness; it is accordingly written with a hieroglyph representing a length of wood charred at the end and not crocodile scales," singular. Kmt from the adjective =kmt= black; it therefore means strictly negroes or at the very least black men. The term is a collective noun which thus described the whole people of pharaonic Egypt as a black people."
 
Divine Epithets

Diop demonstrates that "black or negro" is the divine epithet invariably used for the chief beneficent Gods of Egypt, while the evil spirits were depicted as red.
 
Evidence From the Bible

The Bible states that "[t]he sons of Ham [were] Cush and Mizraim [i.e. Egypt], and Phut, and Canaan. And the sons of Cush; Seba, and Havilah, and Sabtah, and Raamah and Sabtechah." According to Biblical tradition, Ham, of course, was the father of the Black race. "Generally speaking all semitic tradition (Jewish and Arab) class ancient Egypt with the countries of the black."
 
Cultural unity of Egypt With The Rest of Africa

Through a study of circumcision and totemism, Diop gives detailed data showing cultural unity between Egypt and the rest of Africa.
 
Linguistic Unity With Southern and Western Africa

In a detailed study of languages, Diop clearly demonstrates that Ancient Egyptian, modern Coptic of Egypt and Walaf of West Africa are related, with the latter two having their origin in the former.
 
Testimony of Classical Greek and Roman Authors

Virtually all of the early Latin eyewitnesses described the Ancient Egyptians as Black skinned with wooly hair.
http://www.melanet.com/clegg_series/guestbook.html

It could take a whole career to delve deeply into just one of these topics.

BTW....My understanding re "KMT" is that vowels were considered the province of only the priests.....


Pharoah, tell 'em to keep their helmets on.  ;)
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Offline iceman4221

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NEVER Deliberate, Debate or Argue About what is Clearly Wrong and/or Unjust, and Try to Persuade Yourself or Others  that it's Not...

Offline Bison66

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Iceman and Pharoah,

I know y'all have something to contribute, Right?
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Offline Bison66

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As the Elements said in "Mighty Mighty":

We are people, of the mighty
Mighty people of the sun
In our hearts lies all the answers
To the truth you can't run from


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Offline Bison66

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"That astonishing epoch of ni%%er domination"

Arthur Weigall

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

                                   "It seems amazing that an African Negro should have been able with any sort of justification to style himself Emperor of the World"

David Randall-MacIver


More to come...
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