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Author Topic: "...a nation to which Europe owes everything, for Egypt is responsible for..."  (Read 76958 times)

Offline PharoahNupe94

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Neymar,
Thanks for your comments, but....

Pharoah is correct.

Showing pictures of current-day Egyptians to address 6,000 years ago is like showing photos of current day "Americans" to dispute the claim that Native/Indigenous people built the pyramids of Mexico.  After what you asserted re the mixing of peoples, how can you seriously say "pure Egyptian heritage"?  Egypt is a nation, not a race.  But, if you like, we can trade "anecdotal" info:  I met a large "pure Black" man, who was driving a tow truck in Washington, DC.  Being a Pan-Africanist, I asked him where he was from.  He was from the southern part of Egypt and his family had been displaced when the dam was built and they had relocated to Cairo.

The point that the Kemetans (Ancient Egyptians) were Black is proven scientifically beyond dispute by Dr. Cheikh Anta Diop and other scholars.
May I suggest reading his definitive work on the subject?
The African Origin of Civilization: Myth or Reality

If you have not read it, you can "peek" inside here:  http://www.amazon.com/dp/1556520727/ref=rdr_ext_tmb

Now.....You may argue about whether a shade of color makes a difference, but then you would be declaring many modern day African-Americans throughout the Western Hemisphere as non-Black.  My simple test is always whether a person sitting next to Rosa Parks on the bus would have also been arrested also.


But more to the point, just as Greece borrowed heavily from Kemet, Egypt was the cultural child of Nubia which was located in modern day Sudan.  Any Europeans there 6,000 or 8,000 years ago?  I doubt it, but the ancestors of the tow truck driver were there!!!
http://nap.mojanet.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/NAP_lo-112x110.jpg

A map of the region as it existed in ancient times shows that the birth of civilization was well beyond the reach - in time and distance - of those on the other side of the Mediterranean.


As of 7,000 years ago...
Quote
By the middle of the 5th millennium BC, Nubia's Neolithic peoples were full participants in the "agricultural revolution," living a settled lifestyle with domesticated plants and animals. Rock art of cattle and herdsmen found during our expedition suggests the presence of a cattle cult like those found in the Sudan and other parts of Africa today.
http://www.anth.ucsb.edu/faculty/stsmith/research/nubia_history.html

And the research in Nubia continues: http://nap.mojanet.com/
O0


Thanks Bison  :nod:
The book that you mentioned below is very good. I have this book in my collection too :nod:
The African Origin of Civilization: Myth or Reality


Here is another good one and the author is a WHITE MAN  :o
I have the book and DVD

http://www.amazon.com/Return-Glory-Powerful-Stirring-Black/dp/0768430100
or
http://www.returntoglory.org/book.htm

Offline Bison66

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Neymar,

It should also interest you to know that Diop cites the ancient Ethiopians' claim of parentage of the ancient Egyptians to prove that they were Black.

Forgot to mention that.

But why can't we trust the contemporary accounts of the ancient Greeks themselves?  So many of them went to study in Egypt that they would know for sure.  right?  Herodotus made it clear on more than one occasion that the Egyptians were "black-skinned" and had "wooly hair."

Really and truly, this is a settled issue for anyone who has delved into the subject.

We are waaaaaay past racist excuses, like.  "The figures in the temples are Black because they didn't have paint the right color to depict them as beige."   :lmao:

And, of course, within mere inches or feet of those Black figures are examples of many other colors which could have been used and, to boot, other races ARE depicted in other colors on the tomb walls - oftentimes as captives or visitors.
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Offline PharoahNupe94

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 "The figures in the temples are Black because they didn't have paint the right color to depict them as beige."   :lmao:

Just crazy man......Oh here is one that I've heard.
I think it was in the National Geo magazine.
The faces on the wooden sculptures appears to be dark because the wood has
darken over thousands of years....................REALLY????

:lmao:

Offline Bison66

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Pharoah,

Yep.    :lmao: :lmao:
That's a good one.

How about the European scholars who couldn't admit that many of the most revered Madonna and Child depictions IN EUROPE were Black - including the one in the Polish church that the previous Pope from Poland went to pray.

They claimed that smoke from a long-ago fire had darkened the face and hands - BUT MIRACULOUSLY, the other parts had not been affected!!!

Racism will make you look like a fool!!!!
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Offline Bison66

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Back to RELIGION for a moment.

Here, my intention is not to offend anyone. 
I do not subscribe to the "tone" of some of this, but I encourage everyone to consider the evidence of the "origins" of stories we all learned in Sunday School and the "origins" of symbols used in the Christian faith.



I do say that it is impossible to say with a straight face that the images of Biblical personages projected by Christian churches for many centuries accurately reflect the anthropological realities of the region where the events occurred.  IMO it is also ridiculous to argue that the systematic whitening of those persons is an innocent coincidence.
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Offline Bison66

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Thanks Bison  :nod:
The book that you mentioned below is very good. I have this book in my collection too :nod:
The African Origin of Civilization: Myth or Reality


Here is another good one and the author is a WHITE MAN  :o
I have the book and DVD

http://www.amazon.com/Return-Glory-Powerful-Stirring-Black/dp/0768430100
or
http://www.returntoglory.org/book.htm

Pharoah,

Thanks for sharing that book.  I was not familiar with it and will check it out - at least in part.

RE: African/Black people in the "West" (hard to avoid that eurocentric reference, ain't it?), have you read the late Van Sertima's "They Came Before Columbus"?

That was a real eye-opener not only to unknown (to me) history but, for me, an insight into how Euro scientists were quite prepared to ignore or bury data that contradicted the accepted notion that only a European could have sailed the Atlantic to the lands of the Caribs and relatives of the Aztecs in Vera Cruz, Mexico.

Y'all, if you have not checked out this book, you are truly missing a masterpiece of inter-disciplinary scholarship.  Van Sertima - who I had the honor of greeting at the old Howard Inn hotel in DC years ago - uses anthropology, linguistics, metallurgy, astronomy, architecture, botany. biology and more to make an indisputable case that Africans sailed to the Americas looooong before Cristobal Colon (Columbus in Spanish).
http://www.amazon.com/They-Came-Before-Columbus-Presence/dp/0394402456

This video of Van Sertima is long, but well worth your time: 
If you watch the first 8 minutes AFTER the introduction, I promise that you (with an obvious exception) will want to hear the rest.
O0
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Offline PharoahNupe94

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Y'all, if you have not checked out this book, you are truly missing a masterpiece of inter-disciplinary scholarship.  Van Sertima - who I had the honor of greeting at the old Howard Inn hotel in DC years ago - uses anthropology, linguistics, metallurgy, astronomy, architecture, botany. biology and more to make an indisputable case that Africans sailed to the Americas looooong before Cristobal Colon (Columbus in Spanish).
http://www.amazon.com/They-Came-Before-Columbus-Presence/dp/0394402456

I got that one too but I havent finish reading it :nod:

Offline Neymar

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Since there was an Egypt there was a Europe via what would later become Greece(Be it the Ptolemaic dynasty, The Achaemenid empire, or even the Neo Babylonian empire.). These people were caucasian, and they did come across to Egypt and intermingle with them.

As long as there was an Egypt as we knew, there were white people there. Whether or not they were ruling(which they werent until the ptolemaic dynasty of Egypt) is a different story....but they were always there as we knew it. Mongols too.

Of course white folks eventually came to egypt and yes they eventually took over when the Greeks showed up.
I doubt it very serious they were there during the early days and during the great dynasty.
Some of you guys give white folks toooo much created  :no:

Let me ask you this Neymar.

Do you think white people was in China during the Ming Dynasty?
Do you think white people was in Mexico during the Mayans Dynasty?

You are cool with me man. I just dont agree with your statement fully



Its not about giving white folks credit. Its about acknowledging the fact that egypt at its greatest moments were always crossroads of different cultures and people through trade.

China during the ming dynasty was full of many different ethnic groups. The whites were not one of them.

The same can be said for the Mayans.

Comparing those to Egypt is like literally comparing apples to oranges.

Offline Neymar

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Neymar,
Thanks for your comments, but....

Pharoah is correct.

Showing pictures of current-day Egyptians to address 6,000 years ago is like showing photos of current day "Americans" to dispute the claim that Native/Indigenous people built the pyramids of Mexico.  After what you asserted re the mixing of peoples, how can you seriously say "pure Egyptian heritage"?  Egypt is a nation, not a race.  But, if you like, we can trade "anecdotal" info:  I met a large "pure Black" man, who was driving a tow truck in Washington, DC.  Being a Pan-Africanist, I asked him where he was from.  He was from the southern part of Egypt and his family had been displaced when the dam was built and they had relocated to Cairo.

The point that the Kemetans (Ancient Egyptians) were Black is proven scientifically beyond dispute by Dr. Cheikh Anta Diop and other scholars.
May I suggest reading his definitive work on the subject?
The African Origin of Civilization: Myth or Reality

If you have not read it, you can "peek" inside here:  http://www.amazon.com/dp/1556520727/ref=rdr_ext_tmb

Now.....You may argue about whether a shade of color makes a difference, but then you would be declaring many modern day African-Americans throughout the Western Hemisphere as non-Black.  My simple test is always whether a person sitting next to Rosa Parks on the bus would have also been arrested also.


But more to the point, just as Greece borrowed heavily from Kemet, Egypt was the cultural child of Nubia which was located in modern day Sudan.  Any Europeans there 6,000 or 8,000 years ago?  I doubt it, but the ancestors of the tow truck driver were there!!!
http://nap.mojanet.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/NAP_lo-112x110.jpg

A map of the region as it existed in ancient times shows that the birth of civilization was well beyond the reach - in time and distance - of those on the other side of the Mediterranean.


As of 7,000 years ago...
Quote
By the middle of the 5th millennium BC, Nubia's Neolithic peoples were full participants in the "agricultural revolution," living a settled lifestyle with domesticated plants and animals. Rock art of cattle and herdsmen found during our expedition suggests the presence of a cattle cult like those found in the Sudan and other parts of Africa today.
http://www.anth.ucsb.edu/faculty/stsmith/research/nubia_history.html

And the research in Nubia continues: http://nap.mojanet.com/
O0


If you assert that Egypt is a nation, and not a race, then I dont see what the issue is in saying that they are made of many different people due to trade.

Most Modern day descendants of slaves in the western hemisphere arent black in the traditional sense either. They have worldviews, heritage, and in many cases even hair that separates them from their origins on the gold coast.


Offline Neymar

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Neymar,

It should also interest you to know that Diop cites the ancient Ethiopians' claim of parentage of the ancient Egyptians to prove that they were Black.

Forgot to mention that.

But why can't we trust the contemporary accounts of the ancient Greeks themselves?  So many of them went to study in Egypt that they would know for sure.  right?  Herodotus made it clear on more than one occasion that the Egyptians were "black-skinned" and had "wooly hair."

Really and truly, this is a settled issue for anyone who has delved into the subject.

We are waaaaaay past racist excuses, like.  "The figures in the temples are Black because they didn't have paint the right color to depict them as beige."   :lmao:

And, of course, within mere inches or feet of those Black figures are examples of many other colors which could have been used and, to boot, other races ARE depicted in other colors on the tomb walls - oftentimes as captives or visitors.
O0

Ancient Ethiopians also claimed(at least in my ethnic "tribe") that Animals that came around during a funeral was the spirit of the person that just died...I wouldnt be too quick to things my ancestors said a long time ago :lol:

Greeks called anybody darker than them black....and wooly hair is just as prevalent in Berberized peoples as black. The Roman scribe Tacitus even called the native Britons black when he went there. Old Britannia getting the royal treatment by the school African studies department now?

Offline Neymar

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I also must submit that I dont like to be portrayed as defending whites in ths thread. ;D


I am as afrocentric as they come, but Egypt at its highest was during trade, and miscegenation is the basic result of this. They were filled with many different people, and still are today. One race trying to claim all its achievements are shortsighted at best, and dangerous at worst. It is no different than a white nationalist trying to claim today that USA is a white nation, and that all of its achievements are only that of white people.


Egypt was a crossroads. No love for the white man in saying that ;)

Offline soflorattler

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I also must submit that I dont like to be portrayed as defending whites in ths thread. ;D


I am as afrocentric as they come, but Egypt at its highest was during trade, and miscegenation is the basic result of this. They were filled with many different people, and still are today. One race trying to claim all its achievements are shortsighted at best, and dangerous at worst. It is no different than a white nationalist trying to claim today that USA is a white nation, and that all of its achievements are only that of white people.


Egypt was a crossroads. No love for the white man in saying that ;)

There was an Egypt before it became a "crossroads"....

Offline Bison66

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Neymar,

It should also interest you to know that Diop cites the ancient Ethiopians' claim of parentage of the ancient Egyptians to prove that they were Black.

Forgot to mention that.

But why can't we trust the contemporary accounts of the ancient Greeks themselves?  So many of them went to study in Egypt that they would know for sure.  right?  Herodotus made it clear on more than one occasion that the Egyptians were "black-skinned" and had "wooly hair."

Really and truly, this is a settled issue for anyone who has delved into the subject.

We are waaaaaay past racist excuses, like.  "The figures in the temples are Black because they didn't have paint the right color to depict them as beige."   :lmao:

And, of course, within mere inches or feet of those Black figures are examples of many other colors which could have been used and, to boot, other races ARE depicted in other colors on the tomb walls - oftentimes as captives or visitors.
O0

Ancient Ethiopians also claimed(at least in my ethnic "tribe") that Animals that came around during a funeral was the spirit of the person that just died...I wouldnt be too quick to things my ancestors said a long time ago :lol:

Greeks called anybody darker than them black....and wooly hair is just as prevalent in Berberized peoples as black. The Roman scribe Tacitus even called the native Britons black when he went there. Old Britannia getting the royal treatment by the school African studies department now?

It's one thing to say that there were other people in an area during the development of a great civilization - whether it is China or Kemet.  It is quite another to say that the folks responsible for the Ming Dynasty were not Asian and yet..........that is what you seem to be saying about Kemet.

Am I mistaken about your point?

In another post,
Quote
Most Modern day descendants of slaves in the western hemisphere arent black in the traditional sense either. They have worldviews, heritage, and in many cases even hair that separates them from their origins on the gold coast.

you say what I thought you were thinking and alluded to:  Some modern day Blacks 'are not really, really Black.' 

That will come as a surprise to many brown-skinned or light-skinned Brothers and Sister who historically suffered discrimination, segregation and racist violence because they WERE Black.  Race is, as you know, a social construct (altho with a biological base) and though it varies in style and application in various locations and sub-cultures, there is enough uniformity and cultural connectedness to include the impact of gene dilution, different tastes in food and a variety of political viewpoints and religious beliefs. 

There are huge differences between me (born and raised in NYC), you and a rural Zulu, also, but are we three not all Africans or at least Black?

And where did the Berbers get wooly hair from?  But the larger point is that Herodotus said both "black-skinned" and wooly.  And....Much more to the point, the temple and tomb walls tell the story as told by the Kemetans themselves.

On the point about "sole credit", at the end of the Van Sertima video, he states the case well.  He, nor I, is trying to diminish the contribution of anyone.  He is, however, correcting the record which has for centuries denied the contribution of Black people.  Greece was a crossroads, too.  But the Greeks WENT TO AFRICA to study.

I'm not real familiar with Tacitus, the Roman of the 1st Centrury.  Can you direct me to his statement about Brits being Black?  I looked here, but no luck: 
http://resourcesforhistory.com/celtic_druids.htm  ("black-robed")

Elsewhere, I do see Tacitus' physical description of some Brits:
Quote
Their physical characteristics are various, and from these conclusions may be drawn. The red hair and large limbs of the inhabitants of Caledonia point clearly to a German origin. The dark complexion of the Silures, their usually curly hair, and the fact that Spain is the opposite shore to them, are an evidence that Iberians of a former date crossed over and occupied these parts. Those who are nearest to the Gauls are also like them, either from the permanent influence of original descent, or, because in countries which run out so far to meet each other, climate has produced similar physical qualities.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/tac/ag01010.htm
Is that what you are referring to?

I recall that Romans thought the Brits were too stupid to be slaves.  But calling them Black - never heard of that.  UNLESS they ran into the ancestors of the "Black Irish" - http://www.ireland-information.com/articles/blackirish.htm  ;D  ;D

But in any case, that is hardly a basis to contradict Herodotus from centuries before, when race, particularly Blackness, had not yet become a major factor in justifying exploitation.
O0
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Offline PharoahNupe94

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I also must submit that I dont like to be portrayed as defending whites in ths thread. ;D


I am as afrocentric as they come, but Egypt at its highest was during trade, and miscegenation is the basic result of this. They were filled with many different people, and still are today. One race trying to claim all its achievements are shortsighted at best, and dangerous at worst. It is no different than a white nationalist trying to claim today that USA is a white nation, and that all of its achievements are only that of white people.


Egypt was a crossroads. No love for the white man in saying that ;)

 :no: You cant have it both ways Neymar

Offline Bison66

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I also must submit that I dont like to be portrayed as defending whites in ths thread. ;D


I am as afrocentric as they come, but Egypt at its highest was during trade, and miscegenation is the basic result of this. They were filled with many different people, and still are today. One race trying to claim all its achievements are shortsighted at best, and dangerous at worst. It is no different than a white nationalist trying to claim today that USA is a white nation, and that all of its achievements are only that of white people.


Egypt was a crossroads. No love for the white man in saying that ;)

There was an Egypt before it became a "crossroads"....

SoFlo,

YES! That seems to be the case in the sense that Neymar seems to be using it:  As in Alexandria and Cairo in the far north.  But the Upper Kingdom (in the South and up the Nile) preceded the movement of the Kemetan civilization down the Nile toward the Mediterranean.  Lower and Upper (southern) Nubia were HQ.


Was Abu Simbel in an area of crossroads?  Maybe, but I am doubtful.  Even the Valley of the Kings is far from the coast.


But Neymar has not specified the period of "greatness" that he is referencing.  Perhaps he will now.

Meanwhile, I wonder if this guy is Black enough.


If not, why can we not take the word of the Kemetans THEMSELVES.  Image links are disabled on this page, but scroll down to the image on the right side depicting 4 types:  Kemetans, Libyans (Arabs), Nubians and Semites.
http://www.kemetway.com/Digest/Content/Nubia.html
This site is produced by some folks I know in DC.
Also from that site:
Quote
In spite of the claims of earlier beginnings it was not until the 5th century BC that the Greek state is fully established, prior to said time there were a conglomerate of cities and towns of sworn allegiance to one fraternity or another. During the forth century Greeks, and those from their conquered territories began to matriculate in Kemet in search of a better lot in life. All of them who visited noted the race and similarities of both the Kemetians (Egyptians) and the Nubians, the only distinctions drawn were in complexion, dress, and dialect. Without recounting each visitors comments suffice it to consult the books by Dr. William Leo Hansberry: Africa and Africans As Seen By Classical Writers, and the books by Dr. Martin Bernal: Black Athena (3vols). As pointed out in their works not one of the ancient writers mentions seeing a White Kemetian (Eyptian).

Neymar, are we really, actually debating whether the Kemetans were Black?
O0
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