[uchighlander]

I listed facts too. Nothing is fair to ALL people. [Life is not fair....it never will be. Get over it. GO VIKINGS!!!

From the MOUTH of a conservative ladies and gentlemen. 

What further proof do you need that the republiklans don't represent your best interests? 

Even the POOR ones like the idiot above sympathize with the "screw you" attitude of those at the top of the income bracket.

Why would ANY middle class or poor person want to associate with such people?

You are so wrong Scotts. I don't have a "screw you " attitude. I don't believe in being an enabler. Unlike you I believe that hard work will get you things in this country. I don't think that someone OWES me anything. I don't wake up every morning with a chip on my shoulder wondering what or who I can whine about today. To quote Y....." It must suck to be you " GO VIKINGS!!!

[y04185]

So, ARE you saying that we should look to Conservatives to answer bigram$'s question?

For the last time.  bigram$ asked the question to conservatives.  Conservatives should answer the question.  You people should at least give conservatives the opportunity to answer the question.  The first person to respond was cholly.  When did he become a conservative?  Of course you don't have the guts to tell him he was out of place.

[‘87 Alum]

So, ARE you saying that we should look to Conservatives to answer bigram$'s question?

For the last time.  bigram$ asked the question to conservatives.  Conservatives should answer the question.  You people should at least give conservatives the opportunity to answer the question.  The first person to respond was cholly.  When did he become a conservative?  Of course you don't have the guts to tell him he was out of place.

[Bison66]

So, ARE you saying that we should look to Conservatives to answer bigram$'s question?

For the last time.  bigram$ asked the question to conservatives.  Conservatives should answer the question.  You people should at least give conservatives the opportunity to answer the question.  The first person to respond was cholly.  When did he become a conservative?  Of course you don't have the guts to tell him he was out of place.

y04,
You will sooner or later realize that you have misunderstood my question, even though I clarified it today.  Everyone else realizes it.

So, let me re-phrase and explain for you:
I am not referring to the question that bigram$ posed on this forum to "...Conservative brothers."

I AM referring to the question that he asked his Republican friend in the bar.
Remember, from my post @ 12:40:18 today?

I am, to clarify, referring to the question that bigram$'s asked to his Republican friend in the bar.

FTR, I am ignoring your juvenile taunt 'cause it is stale & over-used and that's all you got.

[y04185]

b66, the answer to both questions is the same. 

I did not misunderstand your question.  You failed to ask the right question.  In communications it is the responsibility of the transmitter (you) to make sure the receiver (me) understands what you are trying to say.

In the future ask the question you want answered.

Since, bigram$ titled the thread to conservative brothers it should have been us answering the question.  At least give us first crack at it.  Not some liberal. 

[Cholly]

I listed facts too. Nothing is fair to ALL people. [Life is not fair....it never will be. Get over it. GO VIKINGS!!!

From the MOUTH of a conservative ladies and gentlemen.  

What further proof do you need that the republiklans don't represent your best interests?  

Even the POOR ones like the idiot above sympathize with the "screw you" attitude of those at the top of the income bracket.

Why would ANY middle class or poor person want to associate with such people?

You are so wrong Scotts. I don't have a "screw you " attitude. I don't believe in being an enabler. Unlike you I believe that hard work will get you things in this country. I don't think that someone OWES me anything. I don't wake up every morning with a chip on my shoulder wondering what or who I can whine about today. To quote Y....." It must suck to be you " GO VIKINGS!!!

Yep... look what all that hard work has gotten you there pal.

You REALLY don't get it.  

The people and policies you PERSONALLY support have NOT done anything for you... in fact, they have made life MORE difficult for you.

Thanks for demonstrating yet again how much DUMBER conservatives are than liberals. 

IDIOT.  

[Bison66]

Thank you, y04.

And I promise to give your advice the exact degree and precisely the amount of attention it deserves.  

So, you are saying that we should seek from Conservatives, rather than Republicans, the answer to the question that bigram$ asked:

a friend of mine (who is a republican) told me that the party is very inclusive and fights for the rights of all when i asked him how all he could bring up is that the republicans are the party of Lincoln .... i agreed then asked i and then what .... with no reply....after that he changed the subject

So y04, this leads us quite logically to this incontrovertible point:

It has been Conservatives, not Liberals, who have opposed most advances in regard to rights for people in America:
Conservatives (Dems, Repubs, Independents) opposed:

the elimination of slavery (it was Radical Republicans who fought against Conservative Democrats to abolish slavery)
child labor laws
rights of workers to organize
the civil rights movement  - Conservatives like Bull Connor, Faubus, Thurman, Stennis come to mind
women's suffrage
Civil Rights Acts  

• (Wildman has previously demolished the Repub shibboleth that
   Repubs were the ones who were mostly responsible
   for passage;  However, the key point in this context
   is that it was Conservatives - southern Dems AND Repubs,
  especially who voted against those laws)

Voting Rights Acts
inter-racial marriage

Cholly, did I forget some?

So, y04, please give examples of how Conservatives fought "for the rights of all" which outweigh their opposition to the rights of the majority of people and many different struggles for freedom and participation in democracy represented by the above partial list.

[uchighlander]

I listed facts too. Nothing is fair to ALL people. [Life is not fair....it never will be. Get over it. GO VIKINGS!!!

From the MOUTH of a conservative ladies and gentlemen.  

What further proof do you need that the republiklans don't represent your best interests?  

Even the POOR ones like the idiot above sympathize with the "screw you" attitude of those at the top of the income bracket.

Why would ANY middle class or poor person want to associate with such people?

You are so wrong Scotts. I don't have a "screw you " attitude. I don't believe in being an enabler. Unlike you I believe that hard work will get you things in this country. I don't think that someone OWES me anything. I don't wake up every morning with a chip on my shoulder wondering what or who I can whine about today. To quote Y....." It must suck to be you " GO VIKINGS!!!

Yep... look what all that hard work has gotten you there pal.

You REALLY don't get it.  

The people and policies you PERSONALLY support have NOT done anything for you... in fact, they have made life MORE difficult for you.

Thanks for demonstrating yet again how much DUMBER conservatives are than liberals.  

IDIOT.  

Let's see Scotts......this is how dumb I am because of hard work and the people and policies I support. I graduated high school, joined the Navy, learned a trade, was injured in Vietnam, had to go to college ( on the GI bill )  because I couldn't practice my trade anymore, graduated from college, along the way got married, had 3 sons all who graduated college and have jobs even in this economy,have 2 beautiful grandchildren and I'm still married to the same woman after all these years. Oh yeh.....I owe less than $ 100,000 on my house and it's worth around $ 550,000.....and I have a solid 401K set up by the company I work for ( bad corporation....bad corporation ) . Gee....all that during my life because of a little hard work. Dang.....just think if I would have laid around and waited for a hand out how good I'd have it.   GO VIKINGS!!!

[y04185]

B66, it was the conservative democrats that opposed civil rights.  Have you heard of Everett Dirksen?  He was a conservative and a civil rights champion.  He helped write and got the 1964 Civil Rights Act passed.  He was a conservative.  

[y04185]

Do republicans represent the interest of ALL PEOPLE.... I had an interesting opportunity last night while at the bar, a friend of mine (who is a republican) told me that the party is very inclusive and fights for the rights of all when i asked him how all he could bring up is that the republicans are the party of Lincoln .... i agreed then asked i and then what .... with no reply....after that he changed the subject

So i ask in all fairness with no slight intended, what have republicans put forward to make sure all people are treated fairly


civility please

bigram$, Click here for your answer.

[uchighlander]

Do republicans represent the interest of ALL PEOPLE.... I had an interesting opportunity last night while at the bar, a friend of mine (who is a republican) told me that the party is very inclusive and fights for the rights of all when i asked him how all he could bring up is that the republicans are the party of Lincoln .... i agreed then asked i and then what .... with no reply....after that he changed the subject

So i ask in all fairness with no slight intended, what have republicans put forward to make sure all people are treated fairly


civility please

bigram$, Click here for your answer.

Well Y......apparently you answered their question. GO VIKINGS!!!

[Bison66]

B66, it was the conservative democrats that opposed civil rights.  Have you heard of Everett Dirksen?  He was a conservative and a civil rights champion.  He helped write and got the 1964 Civil Rights Act passed.  He was a conservative.  

I give several examples covering a wide range of history and many issues reflecting an ideology and you respond with one individual's actions.  Dirksen, would probably be considered a moderate these days and might be primaried out of the Repub party today BECAUSE HE WOULD NOT BE CONSERVATIVE ENOUGH.

HOWEVER, with all due respect to the good works of Dirksen, THIS THE RELEVANT POINT:  
YOU say:

B66, it was the conservative democrats that opposed civil rights.

YES, PRECISELY.  THAT IS THE POINT IN A DISCUSSION ABOUT WHETHER CONSERVATIVES HAVE FOUGHT FOR THE RIGHTS OF ALL!!!  THAT WAS bigram$ question to his Repub friend in the bar as applied to modern day Repubs who are overwhelmingly Conservative.  

You are correct:  CONSERVATIVE DEMS (I already mentioned them) AND CONSERVATIVE REPUBS (them, too) OPPOSED CIVIL RIGHTS.

IT WAS LIBERALS or MODERATES WHO SUPPORTED CIVIL RIGHTS LEGISLATION - BOTH REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS.

But that was when there were significant numbers of Conservatives or Liberals in BOTH PARTIES.

The momentous ideological change that has occurred in the parties is what you are missing and have never acknowledged.....UNTIL NOW!

Therefore, it was necessary for me to clarify FIRST whether you thought Conservatives, rather than Repubs should answer bigram$'s question.  Now, at least you are using the right terms AND YOU HAVE ACKOWLEDGED FOR THE FIRST TIME, to my knowledge, THAT CONSERVATIVES opposed Civil Rights legislation.  Pointing out that they were Dems does NOT diminish the fact that they were Conservatives.

Of course, unless you are saying Goldwater and others in the Repub party were Democrats, you will have to acknowledge that Civil Rights legislation was ALSO OPPOSED BY CONSERVATIVE REPUBLICANS.

Thank you for the dialogue.

[soflorattler]

[MisterIkester]

[Bison66]

Do republicans represent the interest of ALL PEOPLE.... I had an interesting opportunity last night while at the bar, a friend of mine (who is a republican) told me that the party is very inclusive and fights for the rights of all when i asked him how all he could bring up is that the republicans are the party of Lincoln .... i agreed then asked i and then what .... with no reply....after that he changed the subject

So i ask in all fairness with no slight intended, what have republicans put forward to make sure all people are treated fairly

civility please

bigram$, Click here for your answer.

Well Y......apparently you answered their question. GO VIKINGS!!!

NOT EXACTLY

I read Williamson's article back in April and commented there (although it appears that they have since removed my comment!)

It is a complexstory, but that article (while good in many ways) perpetuates the same sloppy thinking that confuses long-ago Repubs with the Conservatism of today and ignores that Conservative Repubs and Conservative Dems VOTED THE SAME WAY ON CIVIL RIGHTS!!

THAT is the reason that I clarified with y04 that he was saying that "Conservatives" should be looked to for the answer to bigram$'s question. He said that Conservatives should, not Republicans.  BUT NOW y04 presents an article which hardly mentions "Conservatives" and speaks of Repubs and Dems as if Conservatives in both parties were not on the same side: against Civil Rights!

Below is most of a post from back in April on this site to which NO Conservative replied.  What is essentially relevant to this discussion is the Black Republican's point #2:

* * * *

Bison 66 - April 21, 2012:
I decided to take my points of contention about Repubs and Blacks into another forum and to make a long story short I came across a MOST INTERESTING ASSESSMENT BY A BLACK REPUBLICAN that should be required reading by ALL BLACK, WHITE, BROWN AND CHECKERBOARD REPUBLICANS AND CONSERVATIVES, who claim to be serious about being a truly "National" party which can appeal to various people in the country.  

IMO in order to do so, one has to have a firm grip on the actual history of the GOP.  This guy's knowledge seems to run pretty deep and his advice to Repubs deserves to be heard and heeded.  I hope he DOES write the book he mentions.  I plan to encourage him.

I've made ONLY formatting changes and am NOT putting it in the quote box to make his piece more readable, but you can go to the link if you want to see the original.  Bolding and color is added by me to emphasize points or related to issues that have been discussed here previously.

It is a book review of a book called "Back to Basics for the Republican Party" by Zak.

QUOTE begins:
I myself am a Black Republican, so I agree with Mr. Zak that the GOP's history on civil rights has not been fairly told. However, this book makes the same 2 errors that most GOP loyalists make when discussing Blacks and the GOP:
1)they oversimplify the ideology of the early Republicans and abolitionists.
 
For example, notably missing from Mr. Zak's book are the following facts:
- that Herbert Hoover (Republican) was the first president to refuse to address the NAACP's convention,
- that Carter G. Woodson-the Founder of Black History Month-became so disappointed with the GOP that in the late 1920's he publicly stated that Blacks should stop being blindly loyal to the GOP,
- that soon after Reconstruction the GOP condoned the formation in the South of racially segregated GOP organizations, called the Lily Whites and the Black & Tans;
- that beginning in the 1870's Republican candidates lost elections in some Northern states because the Radical Republicans' idea of perfect equality was not embraced by most Whites, not even by most Republicans;
- that Lincoln was NOT a Radical Republican, he was a moderate who had ALWAYS discussed freeing the slaves ONLY in conjunction with deporting them to another country, for Lincoln openly declared that Blacks were inferior to Whites;
- that after the Civil War the GOP was weak nationally-since the founding of the GOP America has had 4 presidents who won by electoral vote but lost the popular vote, and all 4 were Republicans (Harrison, Hayes, Garfield, and Bush);
- that not all Republicans or abolitionists believed in racial equality, in fact most did NOT, they believed ONLY in ending slavery, and even on that issue they disagreed on the reasons, some were against slavery for moral reasons, others because they feared slave revolts, others because slavery competed with White labor, others because they wanted the good farmland used for more than just cotton.

2) they leave out much of how/why Blacks left the GOP in the first place:

Mr. Zak's book does lay blame at the feet of Barry Goldwater, but overlooks the fact that Goldwater's victory in the GOP presidential primary obviusly says something about the views of rank and file Republicans in 1964-national civil rights legislation was clearly not a priority for most Republican voters in 1964, else Goldwater could not have won.
Goldwater was just the icing on the cake.
Beginning in the 1870's, the GOP began taking the Black vote for granted precisely because the Democrats were such vicious racists. Mr. Zak's book points out how the Democrats were at one point synonymous with the KKK, but he overlooks  the obvious political implication for Black voters-if their only 2 choices were between the GOP and the Klan, it was an easy decision. Blacks voted for the GOP because they feared voting for the Democrats, this led to the GOP taking the Black vote for granted as the GOP moved further away from civil rights issues in order to attract more White voters, feeling confident that in doing so it would not lose Black voters. Today, it's the Democrats who take the Black vote for granted, because most Black voters are afraid of the GOP-the tables have turned.

As a Black Republican who is pro civil rights, I think what we need is a balanced review of history. This book is not balanced. Throughout history minorities have been used by the dominant group like a political footbal, and Blacks in America are no different. I'm working with some other Black Republicans to prepare a balanced view of Blacks and the GOP told from the Black perspective, not the perspective of a party loyalist.
QUOTE ends
http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/A3F812CD2YREC0/ref=cm_pdp_rev_more?ie=UTF8&sort_by=MostRecentReview#R2QNQ2I26XVJKR

Surely, surely, some Repub or Conservative will favor us with their comments on THIS Brother's obviously anguished recounting of history.

* * * *

So, y04, can you stay On Topic and address the issues I raised about CONSERVATIVES, not Republicans?