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Author Topic: Supreme Court Justice Alitos Vote Could Change AA Game  (Read 2724 times)

Offline oldsport

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Supreme Court Justice Alitos Vote Could Change AA Game
« on: February 15, 2012, 04:05:06 PM »
I sure hope Judge Alitos ends the Affirmative Action fiasco....It's time to end racial preferences with respect to college admission.


http://news.yahoo.com/affirmative-action-could-justice-alitos-vote-change-game-140223486--abc-news.html

Question for folk here: Do you believe racial discrimination is unconstitutional as decide in Brown v. the Board of Education (Topeka)?

Just answer the question. Please no dissertations.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2012, 04:09:04 PM by oldsport »

Offline Ken

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Re: Supreme Court Justice Alitos Vote Could Change AA Game
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2012, 04:30:34 PM »
As Twin has told you on previous posts you should dwell in facts.  First AA benefits white women more than any group.  The state of texas needs AA more than minorites do.  With the increase in hispanics and blacks in the state of texas, do you think they are going to pay taxes to support state institution that only whites can attend??? You should thank  God for AA--without it the Army would have gotten rid of your behind after the FIRST pass over not the TENTH.


Be careful what you wish for.

Offline soflorattler

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Re: Supreme Court Justice Alitos Vote Could Change AA Game
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2012, 04:31:56 PM »
 :lol: :lol: Zing!!

Offline Cholly

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Re: Supreme Court Justice Alitos Vote Could Change AA Game
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2012, 05:29:20 PM »
As Twin has told you on previous posts you should dwell in facts.  First AA benefits white women more than any group.  The state of texas needs AA more than minorites do.  With the increase in hispanics and blacks in the state of texas, do you think they are going to pay taxes to support state institution that only whites can attend??? You should thank  God for AA--without it the Army would have gotten rid of your behind after the FIRST pass over not the TENTH.


Be careful what you wish for.

 :o

I'm... Speechless!!

Mostly because I can't stop laughing long enough to talk!!!  :lol: :lmao: :lol:


^^^SPEAKS FOR ITSELF!!!

Offline iceman4221

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Re: Supreme Court Justice Alitos Vote Could Change AA Game
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2012, 06:22:23 PM »
As Twin has told you on previous posts you should dwell in facts.  First AA benefits white women more than any group.  The state of texas needs AA more than minorites do.  With the increase in hispanics and blacks in the state of texas, do you think they are going to pay taxes to support state institution that only whites can attend??? You should thank  God for AA--without it the Army would have gotten rid of your behind after the FIRST pass over not the TENTH.


Be careful what you wish for.

 :o

I'm... Speechless!!

Mostly because I can't stop laughing long enough to talk!!!  :lol: :lmao: :lol:

Who Dee Who!!!     

Soflorattler and Cholly, Ken certainly put "Mr Asinine" in check, with his "I can't help it if I am an ignoramus"...  :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:
Quote
NEVER Deliberate, Debate or Argue About what is Clearly Wrong and/or Unjust, and Try to Persuade Yourself or Others that it's Not...

Offline Wildman78

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Re: Supreme Court Justice Alitos Vote Could Change AA Game
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2012, 07:02:57 PM »
I sure hope Judge Alitos ends the Affirmative Action fiasco....It's time to end racial preferences with respect to college admission.


http://news.yahoo.com/affirmative-action-could-justice-alitos-vote-change-game-140223486--abc-news.html

Question for folk here: Do you believe racial discrimination is unconstitutional as decide in Brown v. the Board of Education (Topeka)?

Just answer the question. Please no dissertations.

I believe Brown vs. Board of Education was decided correctly because it held that the doctrine of separate but equal was unconstitutional.


Offline Bison66

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Re: Supreme Court Justice Alitos Vote Could Change AA Game
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2012, 12:29:37 AM »
I sure hope Judge Alitos ends the Affirmative Action fiasco....It's time to end racial preferences with respect to college admission.


http://news.yahoo.com/affirmative-action-could-justice-alitos-vote-change-game-140223486--abc-news.html

Question for folk here: Do you believe racial discrimination is unconstitutional as decide in Brown v. the Board of Education (Topeka)?

Just answer the question. Please no dissertations.

OS,
As soon as you answer the many pending questions directed to you (including one when you asked for discussion), I'll be happy to consider answering yours.
O0

Offline oldsport

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Re: Supreme Court Justice Alitos Vote Could Change AA Game
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2012, 10:20:44 AM »
I sure hope Judge Alitos ends the Affirmative Action fiasco....It's time to end racial preferences with respect to college admission.


http://news.yahoo.com/affirmative-action-could-justice-alitos-vote-change-game-140223486--abc-news.html

Question for folk here: Do you believe racial discrimination is unconstitutional as decide in Brown v. the Board of Education (Topeka)?

Just answer the question. Please no dissertations.

I believe Brown vs. Board of Education was decided correctly because it held that the doctrine of separate but equal was unconstitutional.



There was a larger issue that Brown decided. The larger issue dealt with racial discrimination.  In otherwords, the decision also opposed discrimination based on race. Again, read the U.S. Constitution Amendment XIV Section 1. It's sometimes called the equal protection clause. Tell me what it means to you. This amendment speaks to civil rights of individuals in this country. Read the entire amendment. Affirmative action can not stand the test against this amendment.

I pray Judge Thomas and others (enough to constitute) decide in favor of the persons filing against being discriminated against under an so-called affirmative action policy.

Offline Cats4ever

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Re: Supreme Court Justice Alitos Vote Could Change AA Game
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2012, 12:35:44 PM »
I will hit them over the head with this:
We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

What does it mean to promote the general welfare? Could AA be consider as part of that. :shrug:
NOUN
1.
well-being: somebody's state or condition with respect to whether he or she is healthy, safe, happy, or prospering
 "concerned about the welfare of prisoners held in solitary confinement"
2.
work to improve people's welfare: efforts, especially on the part of government and institutions, to ensure that the physical, social, and financial conditions under which people live are satisfactory
3.
aid to people in need: financial aid and other benefits for people who are unemployed, below a specific income level, or otherwise requiring assistance, especially when provided by a government agency or program
4.

Same as  welfare work
ADJECTIVE
1.
aiding people in need: concerning or designed to aid people who are poor, unemployed, or in need of assistance in some other way
 "a welfare agency"
2.
receiving government aid owing to need: receiving government financial aid or benefits because of income level, unemployment, or other conditions that create a need for assistance
 "welfare clients"

http://www.bing.com/Dictionary/search?q=define+welfare&qpvt=welfare+definition&FORM=DTPDIA

You tell me. :popcorn:
« Last Edit: February 16, 2012, 12:38:20 PM by Cats4ever »
Your treatment of others give them control of your soul
Matthew 5:25-26

Offline oldsport

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Re: Supreme Court Justice Alitos Vote Could Change AA Game
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2012, 01:15:38 PM »
I will hit them over the head with this:
We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

What does it mean to promote the general welfare? Could AA be consider as part of that. :shrug:
NOUN
1.
well-being: somebody's state or condition with respect to whether he or she is healthy, safe, happy, or prospering
 "concerned about the welfare of prisoners held in solitary confinement"
2.
work to improve people's welfare: efforts, especially on the part of government and institutions, to ensure that the physical, social, and financial conditions under which people live are satisfactory
3.
aid to people in need: financial aid and other benefits for people who are unemployed, below a specific income level, or otherwise requiring assistance, especially when provided by a government agency or program
4.

Same as  welfare work
ADJECTIVE
1.
aiding people in need: concerning or designed to aid people who are poor, unemployed, or in need of assistance in some other way
 "a welfare agency"
2.
receiving government aid owing to need: receiving government financial aid or benefits because of income level, unemployment, or other conditions that create a need for assistance
 "welfare clients"

http://www.bing.com/Dictionary/search?q=define+welfare&qpvt=welfare+definition&FORM=DTPDIA

You tell me. :popcorn:

Try as you might....you can not get around the fact that affirmative action promotes racial and gender discrimination.

Offline Wildman78

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Re: Supreme Court Justice Alitos Vote Could Change AA Game
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2012, 03:08:14 PM »
I sure hope Judge Alitos ends the Affirmative Action fiasco....It's time to end racial preferences with respect to college admission.


http://news.yahoo.com/affirmative-action-could-justice-alitos-vote-change-game-140223486--abc-news.html

Question for folk here: Do you believe racial discrimination is unconstitutional as decide in Brown v. the Board of Education (Topeka)?

Just answer the question. Please no dissertations.

I believe Brown vs. Board of Education was decided correctly because it held that the doctrine of separate but equal was unconstitutional.





There was a larger issue that Brown decided. The larger issue dealt with racial discrimination.  In otherwords, the decision also opposed discrimination based on race. Again, read the U.S. Constitution Amendment XIV Section 1. It's sometimes called the equal protection clause. Tell me what it means to you. This amendment speaks to civil rights of individuals in this country. Read the entire amendment. Affirmative action can not stand the test against this amendment.


I pray Judge Thomas and others (enough to constitute) decide in favor of the persons filing against being discriminated against under an so-called affirmative action policy.


You might want to check your grammar.   ::)  I do not believe Brown held that racial discrimination was always unsconstitutional as you suggest. In Brown, the issue was narrow - whether racially segregated schools were constitutional.

BROWN v. BOARD OF EDUCATION (I)

Facts of the Case

Black children were denied admission to public schools attended by white children under laws requiring or permitting segregation according to the races. The white and black schools approached equality in terms of buildings, curricula, qualifications, and teacher salaries. This case was decided together with Briggs v. Elliott and Davis v. County School Board of Prince Edward County.

Question
Does the segregation of children in public schools solely on the basis of race deprive the minority children of the equal protection of the laws guaranteed by the 14th Amendment?

Conclusion
Decision: 9 votes for Brown, 0 vote(s) against

Legal provision: Equal Protection

Yes. Despite the equalization of the schools by "objective" factors, intangible issues foster and maintain inequality. Racial segregation in public education has a detrimental effect on minority children because it is interpreted as a sign of inferiority. The long-held doctrine that separate facilities were permissible provided they were equal was rejected. Separate but equal is inherently unequal in the context of public education. The unanimous opinion sounded the death-knell for all forms of state-maintained racial separation.

http://www.oyez.org/cases/1950-1959/1952/1952_1/

I'll post the entire opinion. Please show us where the "larger point" was addressed:
 
MR. CHIEF JUSTICE WARREN delivered the opinion of the Court.

These cases come to us from the States of Kansas, South Carolina, Virginia, and Delaware. They are premised on different facts and different local conditions, but a common legal question justifies their consideration together in this consolidated opinion. [Footnote 1]

Page 347 U. S. 487


In each of the cases, minors of the Negro race, through their legal representatives, seek the aid of the courts in obtaining admission to the public schools of their community on a nonsegregated basis. In each instance,

Page 347 U. S. 488

they had been denied admission to schools attended by white children under laws requiring or permitting segregation according to race. This segregation was alleged to deprive the plaintiffs of the equal protection of the laws under the Fourteenth Amendment. In each of the cases other than the Delaware case, a three-judge federal district court denied relief to the plaintiffs on the so-called "separate but equal" doctrine announced by this Court in Plessy v. Fergson, 163 U. S. 537. Under that doctrine, equality of treatment is accorded when the races are provided substantially equal facilities, even though these facilities be separate. In the Delaware case, the Supreme Court of Delaware adhered to that doctrine, but ordered that the plaintiffs be admitted to the white schools because of their superiority to the Negro schools.

The plaintiffs contend that segregated public schools are not "equal" and cannot be made "equal," and that hence they are deprived of the equal protection of the laws. Because of the obvious importance of the question presented, the Court took jurisdiction. [Footnote 2] Argument was heard in the 1952 Term, and reargument was heard this Term on certain questions propounded by the Court. [Footnote 3]

Page 347 U. S. 489


Reargument was largely devoted to the circumstances surrounding the adoption of the Fourteenth Amendment in 1868. It covered exhaustively consideration of the Amendment in Congress, ratification by the states, then-existing practices in racial segregation, and the views of proponents and opponents of the Amendment. This discussion and our own investigation convince us that, although these sources cast some light, it is not enough to resolve the problem with which we are faced. At best, they are inconclusive. The most avid proponents of the post-War Amendments undoubtedly intended them to remove all legal distinctions among "all persons born or naturalized in the United States." Their opponents, just as certainly, were antagonistic to both the letter and the spirit of the Amendments and wished them to have the most limited effect. What others in Congress and the state legislatures had in mind cannot be determined with any degree of certainty.

An additional reason for the inconclusive nature of the Amendment's history with respect to segregated schools is the status of public education at that time. [Footnote 4] In the South, the movement toward free common schools, supported

Page 347 U. S. 490

by general taxation, had not yet taken hold. Education of white children was largely in the hands of private groups. Education of Negroes was almost nonexistent, and practically all of the race were illiterate. In fact, any education of Negroes was forbidden by law in some states. Today, in contrast, many Negroes have achieved outstanding success in the arts and sciences, as well as in the business and professional world. It is true that public school education at the time of the Amendment had advanced further in the North, but the effect of the Amendment on Northern States was generally ignored in the congressional debates. Even in the North, the conditions of public education did not approximate those existing today. The curriculum was usually rudimentary; ungraded schools were common in rural areas; the school term was but three months a year in many states, and compulsory school attendance was virtually unknown. As a consequence, it is not surprising that there should be so little in the history of the Fourteenth Amendment relating to its intended effect on public education.

In the first cases in this Court construing the Fourteenth Amendment, decided shortly after its adoption, the Court interpreted it as proscribing all state-imposed discriminations against the Negro race. [Footnote 5] The doctrine of

Page 347 U. S. 491

"separate but equal" did not make its appearance in this Court until 1896 in the case of Plessy v. Ferguson, supra, involving not education but transportation. [Footnote 6] American courts have since labored with the doctrine for over half a century. In this Court, there have been six cases involving the "separate but equal" doctrine in the field of public education. [Footnote 7] In Cumming v. County Board of Education, 175 U. S. 528, and Gong Lum v. Rice, 275 U. S. 78, the validity of the doctrine itself was not challenged. [Footnote 8] In more recent cases, all on the graduate school

Page 347 U. S. 492

level, inequality was found in that specific benefits enjoyed by white students were denied to Negro students of the same educational qualifications. Missouri ex rel. Gaines v. Canada, 305 U. S. 337; Sipuel v. Oklahoma, 332 U. S. 631; Sweatt v. Painter, 339 U. S. 629; McLaurin v. Oklahoma State Regents, 339 U. S. 637. In none of these cases was it necessary to reexamine the doctrine to grant relief to the Negro plaintiff. And in Sweatt v. Painter, supra, the Court expressly reserved decision on the question whether Plessy v. Ferguson should be held inapplicable to public education.

In the instant cases, that question is directly presented. Here, unlike Sweatt v. Painter, there are findings below that the Negro and white schools involved have been equalized, or are being equalized, with respect to buildings, curricula, qualifications and salaries of teachers, and other "tangible" factors. [Footnote 9] Our decision, therefore, cannot turn on merely a comparison of these tangible factors in the Negro and white schools involved in each of the cases. We must look instead to the effect of segregation itself on public education.

In approaching this problem, we cannot turn the clock back to 1868, when the Amendment was adopted, or even to 1896, when Plessy v. Ferguson was written. We must consider public education in the light of its full development and its present place in American life throughout

Page 347 U. S. 493

the Nation. Only in this way can it be determined if segregation in public schools deprives these plaintiffs of the equal protection of the laws.

Today, education is perhaps the most important function of state and local governments. Compulsory school attendance laws and the great expenditures for education both demonstrate our recognition of the importance of education to our democratic society. It is required in the performance of our most basic public responsibilities, even service in the armed forces. It is the very foundation of good citizenship. Today it is a principal instrument in awakening the child to cultural values, in preparing him for later professional training, and in helping him to adjust normally to his environment. In these days, it is doubtful that any child may reasonably be expected to succeed in life if he is denied the opportunity of an education. Such an opportunity, where the state has undertaken to provide it, is a right which must be made available to all on equal terms.

We come then to the question presented: does segregation of children in public schools solely on the basis of race, even though the physical facilities and other "tangible" factors may be equal, deprive the children of the minority group of equal educational opportunities? We believe that it does.

In Sweatt v. Painter, supra, in finding that a segregated law school for Negroes could not provide them equal educational opportunities, this Court relied in large part on "those qualities which are incapable of objective measurement but which make for greatness in a law school." In McLaurin v. Oklahoma State Regents, supra, the Court, in requiring that a Negro admitted to a white graduate school be treated like all other students, again resorted to intangible considerations: ". . . his ability to study, to engage in discussions and exchange views with other students, and, in general, to learn his profession."

Page 347 U. S. 494

Such considerations apply with added force to children in grade and high schools. To separate them from others of similar age and qualifications solely because of their race generates a feeling of inferiority as to their status in the community that may affect their hearts and minds in a way unlikely ever to be undone. The effect of this separation on their educational opportunities was well stated by a finding in the Kansas case by a court which nevertheless felt compelled to rule against the Negro plaintiffs:

"Segregation of white and colored children in public schools has a detrimental effect upon the colored children. The impact is greater when it has the sanction of the law, for the policy of separating the races is usually interpreted as denoting the inferiority of the negro group. A sense of inferiority affects the motivation of a child to learn. Segregation with the sanction of law, therefore, has a tendency to [retard] the educational and mental development of negro children and to deprive them of some of the benefits they would receive in a racial[ly] integrated school system. [Footnote 10]"

Whatever may have been the extent of psychological knowledge at the time of Plessy v. Ferguson, this finding is amply supported by modern authority. [Footnote 11] Any language

Page 347 U. S. 495

in Plessy v. Ferguson contrary to this finding is rejected.

We conclude that, in the field of public education, the doctrine of "separate but equal" has no place. Separate educational facilities are inherently unequal. Therefore, we hold that the plaintiffs and others similarly situated for whom the actions have been brought are, by reason of the segregation complained of, deprived of the equal protection of the laws guaranteed by the Fourteenth Amendment. This disposition makes unnecessary any discussion whether such segregation also violates the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. [Footnote 12]

Because these are class actions, because of the wide applicability of this decision, and because of the great variety of local conditions, the formulation of decrees in these cases presents problems of considerable complexity. On reargument, the consideration of appropriate relief was necessarily subordinated to the primary question -- the constitutionality of segregation in public education. We have now announced that such segregation is a denial of the equal protection of the laws. In order that we may have the full assistance of the parties in formulating decrees, the cases will be restored to the docket, and the parties are requested to present further argument on Questions 4 and 5 previously propounded by the Court for the reargument this Term. [Footnote 13] The Attorney General

Page 347 U. S. 496

of the United States is again invited to participate. The Attorneys General of the states requiring or permitting segregation in public education will also be permitted to appear as amici curiae upon request to do so by September 15, 1954, and submission of briefs by October 1, 1954. [Footnote 14]

It is so ordered.

http://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/347/483/case.html

What is clear to me is that the Brown case ruled that government sanctioned racial segregation was unconstitutional.  Racial segregation is not the same as racial discrimination.  

As I have explained to you about a dozen times over the years, as the law stands now, the equal protection clause does permit classifications based upon race if there is a compelling reason to do so. As the law stands now,  achieving a diverse university/college student population is a compelling reason justifying the consideration of race in the admission process.

As for your prayers, well........ on second thought, I'll leave that alone.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2012, 04:11:19 PM by Wildman78 »

Offline oldsport

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Re: Supreme Court Justice Alitos Vote Could Change AA Game
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2012, 04:50:00 PM »
Affirmative Disaster.......

http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/affirmative-disaster_626632.html

As to whether Affirmative Action violate the equal protection clause...it certainly does.

Affirmative Action gives preferential treatment to one Group of people at the expense of another group of people.

Affirmative Action actually violates the Equal Protection Clause.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2012, 04:53:26 PM by oldsport »

Offline bigram$

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Re: Supreme Court Justice Alitos Vote Could Change AA Game
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2012, 05:27:40 PM »
Affirmative Disaster.......

http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/affirmative-disaster_626632.html

As to whether Affirmative Action violate the equal protection clause...it certainly does.

Affirmative Action gives preferential treatment to one Group of people at the expense of another group of people.

Affirmative Action actually violates the Equal Protection Clause.


What group of people is being discriminated against ?

Offline 81alphaeagle

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Re: Supreme Court Justice Alitos Vote Could Change AA Game
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2012, 05:31:33 PM »
Affirmative Disaster.......

http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/affirmative-disaster_626632.html

As to whether Affirmative Action violate the equal protection clause...it certainly does.

Affirmative Action gives preferential treatment to one Group of people at the expense of another group of people.

Affirmative Action actually violates the Equal Protection Clause.

Why spotty even INFECTS this board with this right-wing garbage is beyond me, but I guess he thinks he will eventually win "converts" on this board to his GOP bootlicking, buckdancing causes. 

What a pathetic old coon. "
-Strike 79

Offline Wildman78

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Re: Supreme Court Justice Alitos Vote Could Change AA Game
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2012, 06:09:59 PM »
Affirmative Disaster.......

http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/affirmative-disaster_626632.html

As to whether Affirmative Action violate the equal protection clause...it certainly does.

Affirmative Action gives preferential treatment to one Group of people at the expense of another group of people.

Affirmative Action actually violates the Equal Protection Clause.


You are certainly entitled to your opinion and many folks agree with you. However, at this moment in time, your opinion is contrary to the law.

See Holding from Grutter v. Bolling:

Held: The Law School’s narrowly tailored use of race in admissions decisions to further a compelling interest in obtaining the educational benefits that flow from a diverse student body is not prohibited by the Equal Protection Clause, Title VI, or §1981. Pp. 9—32.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/02-241.ZS.html

BTW, I take it that you are abandoning your argument that the Brown case decided some "larger issue" other than the constitutionality of government sanctioned racial segregation :shrug:
« Last Edit: February 16, 2012, 06:24:10 PM by Wildman78 »

 

 

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