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Author Topic: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash  (Read 8309 times)

Offline Bison66

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If you ARE one of those who still believes the spin that the wealthy and their mouthpieces on The Right bamboozled you with that banks were forced to loan money to minorities for homes was the cause of the recent near total collapse of the financial system, then you have not availed yourself of the vast amount of information out there that shows otherwise.

Perhaps A MOVIE is the answer for you and here it is:
INSIDE JOB
Quote

So, basically what happened here is that these bums - these crooks in suits - these educated idiots - these morally depraved criminals - took everybody's money and gambled it every which way, knowing that no matter what happened, they'd get rich and everybody else would suffer. And so the economy caved, and they're still rich, and 30 million people worldwide have lost everything - their homes, their jobs, their place in the community, their vision of the future, their identity.

We know this already. We're all angry about it: Americans are good at getting angry. But there's such a thing as smart angry, and such a thing as stupid angry, and after seeing "Inside Job," audiences will be smart angry. They'll know specifically how bankers, traders and economists brought on the recession. They'll know who did it, and where to place the blame. They won't be barroom cynics or monkeys holding signs, but educated citizens.

"Inside Job" was directed by Charles Ferguson, who made the best and most clear-headed documentary about the Iraq war ("No End in Sight"). But this documentary on the financial crisis is an even more impressive work of journalism. To make it, he had to master a highly technical story before he could tell it to us in clear and concise terms. Indeed, he had to become such an expert that he could go head-to-head with bankers, economics professors and politicians and know exactly when they were attempting to confuse. He had to be able to challenge them when they were trying to lie.

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/10/22/MVET1FUOQM.DTL#ixzz138z5yMSd

And some folks say that govt is the problem!!!
O0
« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 09:32:15 PM by Bison66 »

Offline Black Panther40

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Good stuff.  I would like to watch it. 
Don't you think that's some information I'd like to know?  I like Tacos . . .

Offline uchighlander

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I don't think any sensible person would deny the roll the banks and traders had in this melt down. However, why is it when a liberal is telling the story the always seem to leave out the roll of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac? GO VIKINGS!!!

Offline Maroon and Gray

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I don't think any sensible person would deny the roll the banks and traders had in this melt down. However, why is it when a liberal is telling the story the always seem to leave out the roll of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac? GO VIKINGS!!!

because gov't and pseudo gov't agencies can do no wrong.
Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”
― Isaac Asimov

Offline Black Panther40

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Fannie and Freddie were enablers.  Like drug dealers on the corner peddling . . .

Yep, I said it . . .
Don't you think that's some information I'd like to know?  I like Tacos . . .

Offline Bison66

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Is this your evidence that the filmmaker is a liberal?
"To make it, he had to master a highly technical story before he could tell it to us in clear and concise terms. Indeed, he had to become such an expert that he could go head-to-head with bankers, economics professors and politicians and know exactly when they were attempting to confuse. He had to be able to challenge them when they were trying to lie."

I could see your point because it IS hard to imagine a Conservative doing that!

There's plenty of blame to go around, but it seems as if Freddie and Fannie had less to do with it than the other key players.

M&G and highlander, please recommend an article which you believe is fair and balanced.

I'll wait right here.

O0
« Last Edit: October 26, 2010, 01:44:44 AM by Bison66 »

Offline Black Panther40

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Bison,

Try this on for size . . .

If you understand the concept of "bookmakers" on Wall Street, that is the same as Fannie and Freddie.  A deal maker MUST execute a trade, whether long or short, so the the markets operate in an orderly flow.  It smooths out price fluctuation. 

While Wall Street was cooking up different ways to split a buck with the mortgages, they KNEW they had a "catch all"  in that Fannie and Freddie would buy most of the deals.  I believe it was an unintended consequence of setting up an entity that would always serve as a market for these products, but the banks just played the hand that was dealt them. 

So, I don't think they werenefarious in their intent and existence, but they certainly contributed.

Lack of financial education, greed, and peer pressure are rarely given credit, but I don't know how to quantify that . . .
Don't you think that's some information I'd like to know?  I like Tacos . . .

Offline Bison66

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I won't pretend to have an in-depth understanding of the workings of Wall Street, altho I have dabbled in  stocks and even commodity futures.

Panther,

If you are saying that there were bankers and brokerages who took advantage of the repeal of Glass-Steagall and the existence and procedures of Fannie and Freddie designed for simpler times, that fits my understanding.

But since you seem knowledgeable, let me ask your opinion:  

Which was the more significant contributor to the collapse of the financial system:  sub-prime mortgages themselves OR the securitization of (and the related worthless "insurance" on) mortgages, where they were packaged, then sliced and diced and as a result there was no accountability for how good the mortgages really were?

Meanwhile....

M&G and highlander, please recommend an article which you believe is fair and balanced.

I'll wait right here.

STILL WAITING!

O0
« Last Edit: October 30, 2010, 01:33:54 PM by Bison66 »

Offline Black Panther40

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...Panther,

If you are saying that there were bankers and brokerages who took advantage of the repeal of Glass-Steagall and the existence and procedures of Fannie and Freddie designed for simpler times, that fits my understanding.

But since you seem knowledgeable, let me ask your opinion:

Which was the more significant contributor to the collapse of the financial system:  sub-prime mortgages themselves OR the securitization of (and the related worthless "insurance" on) mortgages, where they were packaged, then sliced and diced and as a result there was no accountability for how good the mortgages really were?
...

We have the exact same understanding with respect to Glass-Steagall.  Classic case of academic thought doesn't exactly work in real life.  Sub-Prime mortgages were immaterial. They were a spec on an ant's butt.  The securitzation and leverage was an issue. Also consider that derivatives...where you "derive" or create some value based on the performance of another instrument.  The farther away, or more levels that derive value from the original instrument is leverage. In this case, the original instrument is the home. Coupled with the banks looking for yield in creating new products, and fannie....the ratings agencies that rubber stamped everything as gold was complicit.

If you keep pulling the onion, you will find that the whole system was on crack
Don't you think that's some information I'd like to know?  I like Tacos . . .

Offline Bison66

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So can we put to pasture (or send to the glue factory) the repeated scapegoating of "minorities", unable to pay their mortgages, who've been blamed for being the initial cause of the problems?

O0

Offline Black Panther40

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Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2010, 12:04:10 PM »
Correct-o-Mundo!!! The pie was already baked.  

I have fought in my own little world to dispel that myth.  As banks tried to create different products, and priced them according to risk (credit), I believe people of color were disparately impacted.  Sub-Prime mortgages were not created to lure people of color specifically, but lack of financial education prior to the mortgage process placed them in that higher risk category.  

I have been clear that a lot of the "A" paper was garbage. Folks just limit it to Alt-A, and No doc loans. People don't realize that if you have a 700 score . . .everything was No Doc, and you didn't ask for it, or have to pay a premium for it. We knew what the computer was going to kick back.  So . . .that is how a police offer with a 50k salary can go get a 600k house with no money down.  I don't have to go too far to explain those numbers don't work . . . and that ain't subprime. These deals are all over the place.  

« Last Edit: October 29, 2010, 12:29:23 PM by Black Panther40 »
Don't you think that's some information I'd like to know?  I like Tacos . . .

Offline Bison66

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Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2010, 12:15:28 PM »
Thanks, Panther!

Meanwhile....(what is it 3 times?)

M&G and highlander, please recommend an article which you believe is fair and balanced.

I'll wait right here.

STILL WAITING!

O0

Offline iceman4221

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Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2010, 07:41:50 PM »
Thanks, Panther!

Meanwhile....(what is it 3 times?)

M&G and highlander, please recommend an article which you believe is fair and balanced.

I'll wait right here.

STILL WAITING!

O0

Bison66 don't whole your breath my brother, thats not going to happen...  This is a board filled with defenders of rhetorical ethics without a serious look at facts...  Facts and Truths are often ignored and if you prove your point, then the opponents will just ignore your requests or posts, as an affront to saying you were right on this one and your argument is more logically and evidence basis than their opinions - we have more politicians on this board than you can find lobbyist in Washington DC...
« Last Edit: November 16, 2010, 07:43:53 PM by iceman4221 »
Quote
NEVER Deliberate, Debate or Argue About what is Clearly Wrong and/or Unjust, and Try to Persuade Yourself or Others that it's Not...

Offline soflorattler

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Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2010, 08:04:18 PM »
Thanks, Panther!

Meanwhile....(what is it 3 times?)

M&G and highlander, please recommend an article which you believe is fair and balanced.

I'll wait right here.

STILL WAITING!

O0

Bison66 don't whole your breath my brother, thats not going to happen...  This is a board filled with defenders of rhetorical ethics without a serious look at facts...  Facts and Truths are often ignored and if you prove your point, then the opponents will just ignore your requests or posts, as an affront to saying you were right on this one and your argument is more logically and evidence basis than their opinions - we have more politicians on this board than you can find lobbyist in Washington DC...


^^^^^^^^^^What he said...

Offline Bison66

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Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2010, 09:49:22 PM »
Iceman,

I know, I know.

These guys can't even acknowledge, let alone address, noncontroversial historical facts which conflict with the one-sided (not to mention lopsided) view they have.

But to more important matters, Iceman:
Are you familiar with YURUGU?

I am asking due to your use of the term "rhetorical ethic."

O0
« Last Edit: November 16, 2010, 09:53:31 PM by Bison66 »

 

 

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