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Author Topic: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash  (Read 8160 times)

Offline iceman4221

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Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
« Reply #30 on: December 18, 2010, 11:41:34 PM »
Thanks, Panther!

Meanwhile....(what is it 3 times?)

M&G and highlander, please recommend an article which you believe is fair and balanced.

I'll wait right here.

STILL WAITING!

O0

Bison66 don't whole your breath my brother, thats not going to happen...  This is a board filled with defenders of rhetorical ethics without a serious look at facts...  Facts and Truths are often ignored and if you prove your point, then the opponents will just ignore your requests or posts, as an affront to saying you were right on this one and your argument is more logically and evidence basis than their opinions - we have more politicians on this board than you can find lobbyist in Washington DC...


^^^^^^^^^^What he said...

Thx Soflorattler!!!  Truth, trumps Bull Chiting, Hands Down!!!
« Last Edit: December 18, 2010, 11:45:18 PM by iceman4221 »
Quote
NEVER Deliberate, Debate or Argue About what is Clearly Wrong and/or Unjust, and Try to Persuade Yourself or Others that it's Not...

Offline Black Panther40

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Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
« Reply #31 on: December 19, 2010, 12:40:29 PM »
...
Beyond that, the timing shows that private players weren’t suckered into a government-created bubble. It was the other way around. During the peak years of housing inflation, Fannie and Freddie were pushed to the sidelines; they only got into dubious lending late in the game, as they tried to regain market share....[/b][/size]

Bam!!
Don't you think that's some information I'd like to know?  I like Tacos . . .

Offline Bison66

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Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
« Reply #32 on: December 20, 2010, 11:12:16 AM »
Bam!!  Bam!! Bam!!

O0

Offline uchighlander

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Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
« Reply #33 on: December 20, 2010, 11:37:17 AM »
John Stossel had a program on over the weekend called the 10 Worst Government Promises and one of them delt with the government getting into the home loan business. To a man....every single one of the experts that were interviewed said Government intervention into the real estate business was the cause of the sub prime melt down. The minute the government said that everyone should own a house put us on the road to disaster. As I have said before....conventional loan mentality and practices would have kept every transaction on the straight and narrow....you would have to qualify for a loan....not just be needy. GO VIKINGS!!!

Offline Maroon and Gray

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Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
« Reply #34 on: December 20, 2010, 11:52:56 AM »
Bam!!  Bam!! Bam!!

O0

is that a John Witherspoon impersonation?
Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”
― Isaac Asimov

Offline Bison66

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Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
« Reply #35 on: December 20, 2010, 12:15:52 PM »
Missed the Stossel program.  What network was it on?  Name of program?

Perhaps I can see it on the web.

highlander,
All of what you say COULD be true.  I don't know, but...

How would that have toppled AIG, Lehman Brothers?

It was the collateralization of obligations (the slicing and dicing of mortagages), the derivatives, the voluntary and greedy abandonment of lending standards, fake-a-- insurance (not designed to cover systemic risk) and biz plans based on the ridiculous belief that housing values would never go down, etc that magnified what would have been a relatively small impact of sub-prime mortgage defaults.

It seems to me that without these other factors a default on many sub-prime mortgages would have been a mere ripple in the economy; not the Tsunami that the other factors created.

Do you know what the default rate on sub-prime mortgages was?
Or what percentage they were of ALL mortgages?

I remember reading that info some time ago and both %s were RELATIVELY small, altho I don't recall the exact numbers.

O0

Offline Bison66

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Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
« Reply #36 on: December 20, 2010, 12:20:07 PM »
Bam!!  Bam!! Bam!!

O0

is that a John Witherspoon impersonation?

You talkin' 'bout 63 Cent?!?!

Funny you should ask that because our oldest son, a music producer, has actually produced Witherspoon's recordings. 

He's a funny dude!!

I wasn't thinking about him; I was reiterating Black Panther's cryptic comment.
O0

Offline uchighlander

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Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
« Reply #37 on: December 20, 2010, 01:48:43 PM »
Missed the Stossel program.  What network was it on?  Name of program?

Perhaps I can see it on the web.

highlander,
All of what you say COULD be true.  I don't know, but...

How would that have toppled AIG, Lehman Brothers?

It was the collateralization of obligations (the slicing and dicing of mortagages), the derivatives, the voluntary and greedy abandonment of lending standards, fake-a-- insurance (not designed to cover systemic risk) and biz plans based on the ridiculous belief that housing values would never go down, etc that magnified what would have been a relatively small impact of sub-prime mortgage defaults.

It seems to me that without these other factors a default on many sub-prime mortgages would have been a mere ripple in the economy; not the Tsunami that the other factors created.

Do you know what the default rate on sub-prime mortgages was?
Or what percentage they were of ALL mortgages?

I remember reading that info some time ago and both %s were RELATIVELY small, altho I don't recall the exact numbers.

O0
That's the point you are MISSING. Maybe on purpose. The slicing and dicing NEVER would have happened if standard lending practices had prevailed. They were changed when the government got involved and required people who were not qualified for home loans to be given the loans using shaky lending practices. The program was on FOX. GO VIKINGS!!!
« Last Edit: December 21, 2010, 09:44:39 AM by uchighlander »

Offline soflorattler

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Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
« Reply #38 on: December 20, 2010, 03:59:42 PM »
Quote
...shaky people be given the loans using shaky lending practices.

Lack of oversight by the repeal of Glass-Steagall, thanks to pressure by Gramm, LED to those banks and investment houses manipulating the system, so that they could make those so-called shaky loans. Those at the top MADE their money, while the rest of us at the bottom were left holding the bag with no bottom. So if you want to say that government was the cause of the economic collapse, then Phil Gramm is in government, so there you go...
« Last Edit: December 20, 2010, 04:01:55 PM by soflorattler »

Offline Wildman78

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Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
« Reply #39 on: December 20, 2010, 04:14:25 PM »
Missed the Stossel program.  What network was it on?  Name of program?

Perhaps I can see it on the web.

highlander,
All of what you say COULD be true.  I don't know, but...

How would that have toppled AIG, Lehman Brothers?

It was the collateralization of obligations (the slicing and dicing of mortagages), the derivatives, the voluntary and greedy abandonment of lending standards, fake-a-- insurance (not designed to cover systemic risk) and biz plans based on the ridiculous belief that housing values would never go down, etc that magnified what would have been a relatively small impact of sub-prime mortgage defaults.

It seems to me that without these other factors a default on many sub-prime mortgages would have been a mere ripple in the economy; not the Tsunami that the other factors created.

Do you know what the default rate on sub-prime mortgages was?
Or what percentage they were of ALL mortgages?

I remember reading that info some time ago and both %s were RELATIVELY small, altho I don't recall the exact numbers.

O0
That's the point you are MISSING. Maybe on purpose. The slicing and dicing NEVER would have happened if standard lending practices had prevailed. The were changed when the government got involved and required people who were not qualified for home loans to be given the loans using shaky lending practices. The program was on FOX. GO VIKINGS!!!

In law, there is cause in fact and proximate cause.  I got up late for work. On my way there, I got hit by a guy that ran a stop sign.  You could argue that I got hit because I got up late for work. That would be a cause in fact. However, the proximate cause of the accident was the guy running the stop sign.

Phrase differently, the failure to adhere to standard lending did not necessarily cause all that crazy stuff with the deriviatives. It just made it possible for it to happen. Those lax lending practices did not force anyone to create and trade dervivatives.  It merely provided them with the opportunity.

At least that's my take. I'm open to intelligent feedback.  
« Last Edit: December 20, 2010, 08:23:41 PM by Wildman78 »

Offline Bison66

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Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
« Reply #40 on: December 20, 2010, 10:45:18 PM »
Missed the Stossel program.  What network was it on?  Name of program?

Perhaps I can see it on the web.

highlander,
All of what you say COULD be true.  I don't know, but...

How would that have toppled AIG, Lehman Brothers?

It was the collateralization of obligations (the slicing and dicing of mortagages), the derivatives, the voluntary and greedy abandonment of lending standards, fake-a-- insurance (not designed to cover systemic risk) and biz plans based on the ridiculous belief that housing values would never go down, etc that magnified what would have been a relatively small impact of sub-prime mortgage defaults.

It seems to me that without these other factors a default on many sub-prime mortgages would have been a mere ripple in the economy; not the Tsunami that the other factors created.

Do you know what the default rate on sub-prime mortgages was?
Or what percentage they were of ALL mortgages?

I remember reading that info some time ago and both %s were RELATIVELY small, altho I don't recall the exact numbers.

O0
That's the point you are MISSING. Maybe on purpose. The slicing and dicing NEVER would have happened if standard lending practices had prevailed. The were changed when the government got involved and required people who were not qualified for home loans to be given the loans using shaky lending practices. The program was on FOX. GO VIKINGS!!!

Firstly...

"Missed the Stossel program.  What network was it on?  Name of program?

Perhaps I can see it on the web."

highlander,

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

O0

Offline uchighlander

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Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
« Reply #41 on: December 21, 2010, 09:52:18 AM »
Quote
...shaky people be given the loans using shaky lending practices.

Lack of oversight by the repeal of Glass-Steagall, thanks to pressure by Gramm, LED to those banks and investment houses manipulating the system, so that they could make those so-called shaky loans. Those at the top MADE their money, while the rest of us at the bottom were left holding the bag with no bottom. So if you want to say that government was the cause of the economic collapse, then Phil Gramm is in government, so there you go...
I'll say it again for those of you who are not reading what I'm saying. Government intervention? What is that? Glass-Steagall and any other program or legislation that creates a situation were common sense is ignored. None of these programs or legislation would ever have been put in place if the government would have stayed out of the real estate business.There would have been NO shaky loans and NO one would have been left holding the bag. GO VIKINGS!!!
« Last Edit: December 21, 2010, 09:54:39 AM by uchighlander »

Offline uchighlander

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Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
« Reply #42 on: December 21, 2010, 09:58:29 AM »
Wildman....your accident....nothing serious I hope. Can't have anything happening to my sparing partners!! GO VIKINGS!!!

Offline soflorattler

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Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
« Reply #43 on: December 22, 2010, 06:53:39 AM »
Quote
...shaky people be given the loans using shaky lending practices.

Lack of oversight by the repeal of Glass-Steagall, thanks to pressure by Gramm, LED to those banks and investment houses manipulating the system, so that they could make those so-called shaky loans. Those at the top MADE their money, while the rest of us at the bottom were left holding the bag with no bottom. So if you want to say that government was the cause of the economic collapse, then Phil Gramm is in government, so there you go...

I'll say it again for those of you who are not reading what I'm saying. Government intervention? What is that? Glass-Steagall and any other program or legislation that creates a situation were common sense is ignored. None of these programs or legislation would ever have been put in place if the government would have stayed out of the real estate business.There would have been NO shaky loans and NO one would have been left holding the bag. GO VIKINGS!!!

It is BECAUSE of those in business and industry, the people you worship, who are led by greed and a lust for domination over others is exactly why government intervention is needed. You're living in a fool's paradise if you think for one minute, that these power barons will "do the right thing" where the human condition is concerned. Forget about it. It's not going to happen.

In principle, here's for instance, where "government intervention" was needed because of the greed and ruthlessness of the people you worship:

Quote
In the years between 1889 and 1920, railroad use in the U.S. expanded six-fold. With this expansion, the dangers to the railroad worker increased.

President Benjamin Harrison addressed these dangers in a speech to the United States Congress in 1889, in which he compared the plight of the railroad worker to those of a soldier at war:

    It is a reproach to our civilization that any class of American workmen, should in the pursuit of a necessary and useful vocation, be subjected to a peril of life and limb as great as that of a soldier in time of war.[2]

In discussing the need for legislation to address the railroad worker's exposure to harm, U.S. Representative Henry D. Flood, a strong advocate for the passage of the FELA, referred to alarming statistics about the injuries and deaths associated with work on the railroad. 40 Congressional Record (1906).

To curb these dangers, Congress relied upon the experience of certain states which had already passed legislation similar to the FELA to support the proposition that the FELA would lead to increased safety on the railroad. Flood, in urging the U.S. House of Representatives to "follow the lead of those enlightened and progressive states." 490 Cong. Rec. 4607 (1906).

It's because of the Rockerfellers and Carnegies of the world, and those who follow their blueprint, that we find this country, and others around the world in the shape it's in.

You, for some ungodly reason, think that these people will police themselves, and conduct business in a manner that will be beneficial to all. We are LIVING PROOF, top to bottom, that nothing could be farther from the truth. Yet, YOU advocate that we move deeper into the abyss of deregulation. You need serious help...seriously....

Offline uchighlander

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Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
« Reply #44 on: December 22, 2010, 10:21:10 AM »
Quote
...shaky people be given the loans using shaky lending practices.

Lack of oversight by the repeal of Glass-Steagall, thanks to pressure by Gramm, LED to those banks and investment houses manipulating the system, so that they could make those so-called shaky loans. Those at the top MADE their money, while the rest of us at the bottom were left holding the bag with no bottom. So if you want to say that government was the cause of the economic collapse, then Phil Gramm is in government, so there you go...

I'll say it again for those of you who are not reading what I'm saying. Government intervention? What is that? Glass-Steagall and any other program or legislation that creates a situation were common sense is ignored. None of these programs or legislation would ever have been put in place if the government would have stayed out of the real estate business.There would have been NO shaky loans and NO one would have been left holding the bag. GO VIKINGS!!!

It is BECAUSE of those in business and industry, the people you worship, who are led by greed and a lust for domination over others is exactly why government intervention is needed. You're living in a fool's paradise if you think for one minute, that these power barons will "do the right thing" where the human condition is concerned. Forget about it. It's not going to happen.

In principle, here's for instance, where "government intervention" was needed because of the greed and ruthlessness of the people you worship:

Quote
In the years between 1889 and 1920, railroad use in the U.S. expanded six-fold. With this expansion, the dangers to the railroad worker increased.

President Benjamin Harrison addressed these dangers in a speech to the United States Congress in 1889, in which he compared the plight of the railroad worker to those of a soldier at war:

    It is a reproach to our civilization that any class of American workmen, should in the pursuit of a necessary and useful vocation, be subjected to a peril of life and limb as great as that of a soldier in time of war.[2]

In discussing the need for legislation to address the railroad worker's exposure to harm, U.S. Representative Henry D. Flood, a strong advocate for the passage of the FELA, referred to alarming statistics about the injuries and deaths associated with work on the railroad. 40 Congressional Record (1906).

To curb these dangers, Congress relied upon the experience of certain states which had already passed legislation similar to the FELA to support the proposition that the FELA would lead to increased safety on the railroad. Flood, in urging the U.S. House of Representatives to "follow the lead of those enlightened and progressive states." 490 Cong. Rec. 4607 (1906).

It's because of the Rockerfellers and Carnegies of the world, and those who follow their blueprint, that we find this country, and others around the world in the shape it's in.

You, for some ungodly reason, think that these people will police themselves, and conduct business in a manner that will be beneficial to all. We are LIVING PROOF, top to bottom, that nothing could be farther from the truth. Yet, YOU advocate that we move deeper into the abyss of deregulation. You need serious help...seriously....
Using your twisted logic you can convince yourself of just about anything can't you. What in the heck do homeloans have anything to do with what you posted other than it's another way of you taking a shot at rich people. Who brainwashed you anyway? GO VIKINGS!!!

 

 

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