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Author Topic: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash  (Read 8161 times)

Offline soflorattler

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Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2010, 07:29:33 AM »



If you keep pulling the onion, you will find that the whole system was on crack

Exactly. Phil Gramm and Jim Leach, along with the republican majority in '99 didn't make things any better by repealing Glass-Steagall.

Offline thirdeye

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Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2010, 09:46:43 AM »
The meltdown was coming and predicted.  The subprime scandal was a way for real estate investors to capitalize before the housing market crashed, and big banks to use the effect to take control over the financial market.  With technology and globalization (outsourcing) killing the American labor pool, they knew that by this time the unemployment rate was going to drastically effect the national economy.  A computer can do the work, but when it replaces humans in the labor market, it cannot replace them in the consumer market...so naturally the relationship adversely effects the economy.  So, at the peak it encouraged people to buy houses that they couldn't afford, on interest only loans that would come to call.  And then the gubment, rerouted tax dollars and instituted money that we didnt have to fund the big banks and force the little banks to either go under or allow the big banks to buy them out.  If you look at the major financial institutions, there are only about 3 that through the use of other names own most of the financial institutions now.  People  call it "conspiracy" but nothing happens by chance...This whole thing and it's outcome was foreseen.

Offline uchighlander

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Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2010, 10:00:55 AM »
Thanks, Panther!

Meanwhile....(what is it 3 times?)

M&G and highlander, please recommend an article which you believe is fair and balanced.

I'll wait right here.

STILL WAITING!

O0
Re-read the Star Parker article. GO VIKINGS!!!

Online Bison66

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Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2010, 12:17:57 PM »
I've actually read it twice already to make sure I didn't miss anything, perhaps even an allusion to other factors.

I asked you guys about something more "fair and balanced."  And you now refer me to the Parker article.

I can only refer you to my comments in that thread:

"Any discussion of what caused the crisis which DOES NOT EVEN MENTION the collaterization of mortgages and derivatives is COMPLETELY LAUGHABLE and reveals an ideological bias incapable of seeing the woods OR the trees."

So.try again.

Still waiting.
O0

Offline uchighlander

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Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2010, 02:38:35 PM »
I've actually read it twice already to make sure I didn't miss anything, perhaps even an allusion to other factors.

I asked you guys about something more "fair and balanced."  And you now refer me to the Parker article.

I can only refer you to my comments in that thread:

"Any discussion of what caused the crisis which DOES NOT EVEN MENTION the collaterization of mortgages and derivatives is COMPLETELY LAUGHABLE and reveals an ideological bias incapable of seeing the woods OR the trees."

So.try again.

Still waiting.
O0
I think it's fair and balanced.....you don't.....so we disagree on something....what's new? GO VIKINGS!!!

Online Bison66

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Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
« Reply #20 on: November 18, 2010, 01:04:17 AM »
See, highlander, this is the kind of thing I discussed in my response to M&G in another thread.

You posed a legit question about why Liberals never mention Fannie and Freddie.  I didn't deny they had a role.  I said it was minor in comparison.

THAT's "fair and balanced (f&b)."

But when you tell me that the Parker article is "f&b" and she mentions NOTHING about the other contributing factors to the meltdown, then I know you are BSing.............or you are just being blindly ideological like she is.

Perhaps your original question was just an attempt at diversion from the essential truths revealed in the movie we were discussing:   Inside Job.

Either way, it's sad.
O0

Offline soflorattler

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Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
« Reply #21 on: November 18, 2010, 05:47:47 AM »

You posed a legit question about why Liberals never mention Fannie and Freddie.  I didn't deny they had a role.  I said it was minor in comparison.

THAT's "fair and balanced (f&b)."
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Simply put- Fannie and Freddie held the paper, while the boys on Wall Street and Bankers manipulated it. To try and hold Fannie and Freddie solely to blame is ignorant at best...

Offline uchighlander

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Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
« Reply #22 on: November 18, 2010, 10:00:51 AM »
See, highlander, this is the kind of thing I discussed in my response to M&G in another thread.

You posed a legit question about why Liberals never mention Fannie and Freddie.  I didn't deny they had a role.  I said it was minor in comparison.

THAT's "fair and balanced (f&b)."

But when you tell me that the Parker article is "f&b" and she mentions NOTHING about the other contributing factors to the meltdown, then I know you are BSing.............or you are just being blindly ideological like she is.

Perhaps your original question was just an attempt at diversion from the essential truths revealed in the movie we were discussing:   Inside Job.

Either way, it's sad.
O0

No....what you need to do is go back and read my original couple of posts on the Star Parker article.. Focus on what I said......if standard lending practices had been kept in place none of this would have happened. Are you going to deny that? As soon as the government got involved standard lending practices went out the window leaving everything open to abuse. GO VIKINGS!!!
« Last Edit: November 18, 2010, 10:09:11 AM by uchighlander »

Online Bison66

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Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
« Reply #23 on: November 19, 2010, 12:20:09 AM »
Your first post stated that Parker had it right.  You did make a point about F&F's policies starting the whole thing.  So far, so good.

However, in this thread you offered Parker's article in response to my request to you and M&G for a "fair and balanced" article.  It clearly is NOT that, which even you would have to admit in all honesty, because the article IGNORES all other factors.  If I am wrong, please point me to it in the Parker article.  [Not to mention that Parker relies almost exclusively on ONE source, a former Fannie guy.]

Regarding your specific question, I have already acknowledged that F&F played a role.  That they were the gateway drugs that began the" addiction to derivatives" is, at best, debatable.  (Have you taken time to read up on collateralized obligations?)

Since  you maintain that the Parker article, which MENTIONS NO OTHER FACTORS, is "f&b" then it is not that we disagree, it is that you are maintaining the completely untenable position that a "F&B" article on this complicated matter is one in which there was only one causal and contributing factor.

O0

Online Bison66

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Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
« Reply #24 on: November 19, 2010, 08:57:08 PM »
From this excerpt, it appears that this book is approaching the subject in a fair and balanced manner:

http://parkerspitzer.blogs.cnn.com/2010/11/19/devils-are-here-economic-disaster-unavoidable/

O0

Offline iceman4221

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Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
« Reply #25 on: November 28, 2010, 12:34:04 PM »
Iceman,

I know, I know.

These guys can't even acknowledge, let alone address, noncontroversial historical facts which conflict with the one-sided (not to mention lopsided) view they have.

But to more important matters, Iceman:
Are you familiar with YURUGU?

I am asking due to your use of the term "rhetorical ethic."

O0

But of course, its one of the most intriguing books that I have ever read and continue to read and re-read on an ongoing basis Bison66...   

It's quite enlightening to see the mask removed and the inner workings revealed so as not to be hoodwinked by the powers that be...   
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NEVER Deliberate, Debate or Argue About what is Clearly Wrong and/or Unjust, and Try to Persuade Yourself or Others that it's Not...

Offline iceman4221

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Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
« Reply #26 on: November 28, 2010, 12:40:12 PM »
I've actually read it twice already to make sure I didn't miss anything, perhaps even an allusion to other factors.

I asked you guys about something more "fair and balanced."  And you now refer me to the Parker article.

I can only refer you to my comments in that thread:

"Any discussion of what caused the crisis which DOES NOT EVEN MENTION the collaterization of mortgages and derivatives is COMPLETELY LAUGHABLE and reveals an ideological bias incapable of seeing the woods OR the trees."

So.try again.

Still waiting.
O0

When the wind comes out of the sails of the commercial mortgage sector, in addition to the problems created by collaterization of mortgages and derivatives - which has not reached full maturity as of yet - we will be dealing with another blow to our financial sector, due to these shenanigans... 
Quote
NEVER Deliberate, Debate or Argue About what is Clearly Wrong and/or Unjust, and Try to Persuade Yourself or Others that it's Not...

Online Bison66

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Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
« Reply #27 on: November 28, 2010, 12:58:31 PM »
Good info, Iceman!

It's like a desk reference.  Contains many keys to the puzzle.
O0
« Last Edit: November 28, 2010, 01:48:19 PM by Bison66 »

Online Bison66

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Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
« Reply #28 on: December 18, 2010, 10:29:30 PM »
Quote
It’s not as if the story of the crisis is particularly obscure. First, there was a widely spread housing bubble, not just in the United States, but in Ireland, Spain, and other countries as well. This bubble was inflated by irresponsible lending, made possible both by bank deregulation and the failure to extend regulation to “shadow banks,” which weren’t covered by traditional regulation but nonetheless engaged in banking activities and created bank-type risks.

Then the bubble burst, with hugely disruptive consequences. It turned out that Wall Street had created a web of interconnection nobody understood, so that the failure of Lehman Brothers, a medium-size investment bank, could threaten to take down the whole world financial system.

It’s a straightforward story, but a story that the Republican members of the commission don’t want told. Literally.

Last week, reports Shahien Nasiripour of The Huffington Post, all four Republicans on the commission voted to exclude the following terms from the report: “deregulation,” “shadow banking,” “interconnection,” and, yes, “Wall Street.”

When Democratic members refused to go along with this insistence that the story of Hamlet be told without the prince, the Republicans went ahead and issued their own report, which did, indeed, avoid using any of the banned terms.

That report is all of nine pages long, with few facts and hardly any numbers. Beyond that, it tells a story that has been widely and repeatedly debunked — without responding at all to the debunkers.

In the world according to the G.O.P. commissioners, it’s all the fault of government do-gooders, who used various levers — especially Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the government-sponsored loan-guarantee agencies — to promote loans to low-income borrowers. Wall Street — I mean, the private sector — erred only to the extent that it got suckered into going along with this government-created bubble.

It’s hard to overstate how wrongheaded all of this is. For one thing, as I’ve already noted, the housing bubble was international — and Fannie and Freddie weren’t guaranteeing mortgages in Latvia. Nor were they guaranteeing loans in commercial real estate, which also experienced a huge bubble.

Beyond that, the timing shows that private players weren’t suckered into a government-created bubble. It was the other way around. During the peak years of housing inflation, Fannie and Freddie were pushed to the sidelines; they only got into dubious lending late in the game, as they tried to regain market share.

The title of the  column is:  WALL STREET WHITEWASH
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/17/opinion/17krugman.html?_r=1&emc=eta1

O0

Offline iceman4221

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Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
« Reply #29 on: December 18, 2010, 11:39:45 PM »
Intriguing article, very on point!!!
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NEVER Deliberate, Debate or Argue About what is Clearly Wrong and/or Unjust, and Try to Persuade Yourself or Others that it's Not...

 

 

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