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Author Topic: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america  (Read 14810 times)

Offline CIAA-FAN

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THESE TWO BOOKS WILL GIVE YOU INTERESTING FIRST HAND PERSPECTIVE AND ANSWERS TO THE QUESTION.  THE FIRST ONE I READ AND THE SECOND I HAVE READ PARTS OF:

"FORGOTTEN CONFEDERATES: AN ANTHOLOGY ABOUT BLACK SOUTHERNERS" - COMPILED AND EDITED BY CHARLES KELLY BARROW, J.H. SEGARS AND R.B.ROSENBURG, JOURNAL OF CONFEDERATE HISTORY SERIES, VOL, XIV - 1995

BLACK SOUTHERNERS IN GRAY: ESSAYS ON AFRO-AMERICANS IN CONFEDERATE ARMIES - BY: ANDREW CHANDLER BATTAILE, ERVIN L. JORDAN, ARTHUR W. BERGERON, JR, RICHARD ROLLINS, THOMAS Y. CARTWRIGHT AND RUDOLF YOUNG; EDITED BY RICHARD ROLLINS - RANK AND FILE PUBLICATIONS - 1994

BOTH CONTAIN A GREAT SERIES OF NARRATIVES AND FIRST HAND ACCOUNTS ABOUT A LITTLE KNOWN OR DISCUSSED ASPECT OF AMERICAN HISTORY.  THE ANSWERS TO THE BASIC QUESTIONS ARE ENLIGHTENING AND CONTRARY TO POPULAR MISCONCEPTIONS, ON THE TOPIC.  


FAN,

I respectfully request that you share with the Board ANY AND ALL information from what you read in those volumes which MIGHT support either:
- the idea that enslaved Africans in the South had a "true choice" (see my note to y04) to join either army
OR
- the claim that the number of Africans/Blacks in the CSA Army was more than a mere fraction of Blacks/Africans in the Union Army
OR
- that there were Black/African units in the CSA Army
OR
- that there were a significant number of ARMED Blacks in the CSA Army.

Any or all such information will be greatly appreciated by this poster and, I am sure, others.

O0

AS I HAVE STATED I AM A CIVIL WAR BUFF AND HAVE A LOT OF BOOKS ON THE SUBJECT, IN MY PERSONAL LIBRARY.  HAVE BEEN INTERESTED IN THIS TOPIC FOR OVER 30 YRS, ESPECIALLY AFTER I FOUND OUT PURELY BY ACCIDENT THAT AN ANCESTOR OF MINE WAS IN THE UNION ARMY's U.S. COLORED TROOPS (USCT) STATIONED NEAR WASHINGTON, DC, DURING THE CIVIL WAR; (1863-1864).  I HAVE SOME MORE TITLES AT HOME THAT I WILL POST HERE LATER TONIGHT, FOR THE EDIFICATION AND EDUCATION OF ALL.  TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTIONS ABOVE WILL TAKE SOME TIME AND EFFORT TO QUOTE SPECIFC SECTIONS AND PARAGRAPHS,  BUT I WILL GIVE YOU SUMMARY RESPONSES, BASED ON WHAT I HAVE PERSONALLY READ.  

- the idea that enslaved Africans in the South had a "true choice" (see my note to y04) to join either army - THEY HAD NO TRUE CHOICE.  MOST WERE FORCED,  HOWEVER SOME ACTUALLY VOLUNTEERED OUT OF A TRUE SENSE OF PERVERTED LOYALTY AND A REAL DESIRE TO PROTECT "THEIR" HOMELAND FROM INVADING YANKEES.

OR
- the claim that the number of Africans/Blacks in the CSA Army was more than a mere fraction of Blacks/Africans in the Union Army

I READ NO EVIDENCE THAT THAT THE NUMBER OF BLACKS IN THE CONFEDERATE ARMY EVER NUMBERED MORE THAN 5,000.  HOWEVER, THERE IS DOCUMENT PROOF THAT THE NUMBER OF BLACKS SERVING IN THE UNION ARMY AND NAVY WAS JUST OVER 200,000 OR APPROXIMATELY 20% OF THE ENTIRE UNION FORCES IN THE FIELD DURING THE ENTIRE CONFLICT.

OR
- that there were Black/African units in the CSA Army - THERE IS NO KNOWN DOCUMENTED EVIDENCE OF ALL-BLACK/AFRICAN UNITS IN THE CSA.   ALL BLACK UNITS WERE LED BY WHITE OFFICERS AND NON-COMMISSIONED OFFICERS.

OR
- that there were a significant number of ARMED Blacks in the CSA Army.  -- THERE WERE 3 DOCUMENTED ARMED BLACK CSA UNITS, LED BY WHITE OFFICERS AND THE BLACKS WERE REQUIRED TO TURNOVER THEIR WEAPONS TO WHITE OFFICERS WHEN NOT ENGAGED IN COMBAT OPERATION.  THE LOGISTICS OF THAT NON-SENSE IF AN ATTACK WERE IMMINENT OR AN UNEXPECTED ATTACK OCCURRED BORDERS ON THE INANE AND HILARIOUS.  I CAN JUST IMAGINE THIS CONVERSATION BETWEEN BLACK CSA SOLDIER AND WHITE CSA OFFICER AT 3:00 AM, "MASSA, WAKE UP! I HEARED DEM YANKEES IS A-COMING CAN I HAS MY GUN NOW?".   :lmao:

MOST BLACK IN THE CSA WERE IN LABOR AND ENGINEER UNITS CONSTRUCTING RAMPARTS, FORTS, BUILDING ROAD BARRIERS, OR ACTING AS STEVEDORES, NON-ARMED PICKETS, FORCED LABORERS, PATROLLERS, SPIES OR ASSIGNED TO STEAL UNION SUPPLIES.  TOWARDS THE END OF THE CONFLICT WHEN THE SOUTH FULLY REALIZED THE END WAS NEAR,  SOME CSA GENERALS WANTED TO FORM ALL BLACK UNITS LED BY THEIR BEST "DARKIES" (AUTHORS AND NOT MY WORDS).   JEFFERSON DAVIS IS SUSPOSED TO HAVE SERIOUSLY CONSIDERED THIS OPTION BUT THE WAR ENDED WITH LEE'S SURRENDER IN APRIL 1865, BEFORE HE COULD ACT.  EARLIER SOME CSA GENERALS WERE ACTUALLY RELIEVED OF COMMAND FOR PROPOSING THE SAME THINGS IN 1863.  MANY BLACKS BELIEVED BECAUSE OF PREVAILING SOUTHERN PROPOGANDA THAT YANKEES WERE LESS THAT HUMAN AND THAT THEIR CHANCES WERE BETTER SERVED WITH A WHITE MAN THEY KNEW AS OPPOSED TO WHITE MEN THEY DIDN'T KNOW!  REMEBER, BY THE CIVIL WAR MOST BLACKS HAD BEEN EFFECTIVELY BEEN SEPARATED FROM MOST OF THEIR PRIDE, HERITAGE AND CUSTOMS FROM AFRICA.  THEY THOUGHT OF THEMSELVES AS " 'MERICANS" AND NOT AFRICANS.   EVEN THOUGH MOST HAD NO REAL CONCEPT OF WHAT AMERICAN CITIZENSHIP ACTUALLY ENTAILED.   I LEARNED FROM READING THESE BOOKS THAT IT IS VERY DIFFICULT FOR BLACKS TODAY WITH 20TH CENTURY PERSPECTIVES AND SENSIBILITIES TO CRITCALLY AND IMPARTIALLY JUDGE THE MOTIVATIONS OF OUR ANCESTORS WITH THEIR 19TH CENTURY PERSPECTIVES OF WHAT WAS OR WAS NOT ACTUALLY ATTAINABLE.     WHENEVER, I HEAR BLACKS TODAY SAY "MAN IF I HAD BEEN A SLAVE BACK THEN, I WOULD HAVE KICKED MASSA'S a**  OR DID THIS, THAT AND THE OTHER...."   I JUST SMILE TO MYSELF
AT ALL THE FALSE BRAVADO.

Any or all such information will be greatly appreciated by this poster and, I am sure, others.
I'm an Army Civilian and former Soldier on the Army Team. I'm dedicated to my Army, Soldiers and Civilians. I will always support the mission. I provide stability and continuity during war and peace. I'll support and defend the Constitution and consider it an honor to serve our nation and my Army.

Offline CIAA-FAN

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"BISON66" - HERE ARE SOME OF MY OTHER FAVORITE VOLUMES I HAVE IN MY PERSONAL COLLECTION.  I HAVE OTHERS COLLECTED OVER THE YEARS BUT I AM NOT GOING OUT TO THE GARAGE TO DIG THEM OUT.  A FEW WEEKS AGO I RAN INTO ONE OF MY FORMER COMPANY COMMANDERS FROM BACK WHEN I WAS BATTALION COMMANDER, YEARS BACK.  HE HAD JUST RETIRED AND WAS NOW LIVING IN HUNTSVILLE, AL.   OVER TOO MANY SCOTCHES, WE GOT INTO A HEATED DEBATE ABOUT BLACKS IN THE CIVIL WAR.  HE WAS/IS ALSO A FAN OF THE TOPIC.  I ENDED UP GETTING OUT THE "FORGOTTEN CONFEDERATES" VOLUME TO PROVE MY POINT.  THEN OVER THE NEXT FEW DAYS I ENDED UP RE-READING THE ENTIRE VOLUME!.

"FORGED IN BATTLE: THE CIVIL WAR ALLIANCE OF BLACK SOLDIERS AND WHITE OFFICERS" - JOSEPH T. GLATTHAAR, THE FREE PRESS  COLLIER MACMILLAN, 1990

"THE SABLE ARM: BLACK TROOPS IN  THE UNION ARMY (1861-1865)" - DUDLEY TAYLOR CORNISH, UNIVERSITY PRESS OF KANSAS, 1987.  (MR. CORNISH WAS A PROFESSOR OF AFRICAN-AMERICAN HISTORY AT I BELIEVE NORFOLK STATE UNIVERSITY

"A BRAVE BLACK REGIMENT: THE HISTORY OF THE 54TH MASSACHUSETTS, 1863-1865" - LUIS F. EMILLO, DA CAPO PRESS, NEW YORK, 1995 (FIRST PUBLISHED IN 1984)

"THE NEGRO IN THE CIVIL WAR" - DR. BENJAMIN QUARLES (PROFESSOR EMERITUS OF THEN MORGAN STATE COLLEGE) DA CAPO PRESS, 1953 --- (I TOOK TWO HISTORY COURSES TAUGHT BY DR. QUARLES WHILE A MORGAN STATE UNDERGRAD.  I LOVED AND RESPECTED THIS MAN.  HE IS PERHAPS MOST RESPONSIBLE FOR ME MAJORING IN POLITICAL SCIENCE / PRE-LAW AND WAS INSTRUMENTAL IN THE POLITICAL BELIEFS I HOLD TODAY.  MAY HE REST IN PEACE.)

"ARMY LIFE IN A BLACK REGIMENT" - THOMAS WENTWORTH HIGGINSON, THE PENGUIN GROUP, 1997

"A DIFFERENT STORY" - A BLACK HISTORY OF FREDERICKSBURG, STAFFORD AND SPOTSYLVANIA, VIRGINIA" - RUTH CODER FITZGERALD - UNICORN PRESS, 1979

"CIVIL WAR CURIOSTIES" - WEBB GARRISON, FALL RIVER PRESS, 1994



 
« Last Edit: March 24, 2014, 07:56:52 PM by CIAA-FAN »
I'm an Army Civilian and former Soldier on the Army Team. I'm dedicated to my Army, Soldiers and Civilians. I will always support the mission. I provide stability and continuity during war and peace. I'll support and defend the Constitution and consider it an honor to serve our nation and my Army.

Offline CIAA-FAN

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ANY MORE RESPONSES?
I'm an Army Civilian and former Soldier on the Army Team. I'm dedicated to my Army, Soldiers and Civilians. I will always support the mission. I provide stability and continuity during war and peace. I'll support and defend the Constitution and consider it an honor to serve our nation and my Army.

Offline Bison66

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There is NO WAY any honest person could say that the number of Blacks in the CSA Army was even close at all to the numbers fighting for the Union.

y04, I see you still have no response to my inquiry from almost 4 years ago in this thread to "clarify" what you termed a "choice" of which side to "fight" on.  I do, of course, realize that you don't because it was muddled thinking that led you to say that enslaved folks had a "choice" in the first place.

O0

The choice was crystal clear.  He had a choice of fighting for the Union for 10 dollars a month or the south for 30.  That was the choice. 
y04,

I know that you INSIST on not being taken seriously, but please make an exception so that you can claim at least ONE INSTANCE where you were actually able to back up what you were saying with logic and/or facts.

Here is what I originally asked you about "the choice" which you assert enslaved Blacks in the South had:

Quote
"In what context are you speaking when you say, " the slave was getting off the plantation.  he had a choice.  go to the union side for ten dollars a month or go to the confederate side for thirty dollars a month." ??

"Choice"?  As in "freedom" of movement?  You speak as if slaves were already freed under the CSA."

More concretely, let me say that the "choice" you mention is between:
1) running away (risking severe punishment, including maiming, and leaving children and loved ones), making way through somewhat unknown territory during war time with troops on patrol, sneaking through Confederate Army lines to get to Union lines without knowing for sure they could get in the Army to be paid (many Blacks were not accepted).
vs.
2) raising their hands to volunteer for the CSA AND being paid with the knowledge, since you say they were so well informed*, that if the South lost, they would be freed anyway and, if the South won, they'd expect some "return on their investment."

But my larger point is that enslaved Africans did not have freedom of movement to exercise what might have been their "true" choice.

Answers?

You couldn't explain that more than 4 years ago and you can't explain it now.  
Can you?

O0
« Last Edit: April 19, 2014, 11:43:17 PM by Bison66 »
Long Live Killmonger!

Offline Bison66

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For y04,

TICK TOCK, TICK TOCK......



Quote
You couldn't explain that more than 4 years ago and you can't explain it now. 


Yeah,...that's exactly what I thought.

 :lmao:
O0
Long Live Killmonger!

Offline Bison66

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FAN,

THANK YOU!!!

THANK YOU!!!

THANK YOU!!!

THANK YOU!!!

HALL OF FAME WORTHY!!!!!

THESE TWO BOOKS WILL GIVE YOU INTERESTING FIRST HAND PERSPECTIVE AND ANSWERS TO THE QUESTION.  THE FIRST ONE I READ AND THE SECOND I HAVE READ PARTS OF:

"FORGOTTEN CONFEDERATES: AN ANTHOLOGY ABOUT BLACK SOUTHERNERS" - COMPILED AND EDITED BY CHARLES KELLY BARROW, J.H. SEGARS AND R.B.ROSENBURG, JOURNAL OF CONFEDERATE HISTORY SERIES, VOL, XIV - 1995

BLACK SOUTHERNERS IN GRAY: ESSAYS ON AFRO-AMERICANS IN CONFEDERATE ARMIES - BY: ANDREW CHANDLER BATTAILE, ERVIN L. JORDAN, ARTHUR W. BERGERON, JR, RICHARD ROLLINS, THOMAS Y. CARTWRIGHT AND RUDOLF YOUNG; EDITED BY RICHARD ROLLINS - RANK AND FILE PUBLICATIONS - 1994

BOTH CONTAIN A GREAT SERIES OF NARRATIVES AND FIRST HAND ACCOUNTS ABOUT A LITTLE KNOWN OR DISCUSSED ASPECT OF AMERICAN HISTORY.  THE ANSWERS TO THE BASIC QUESTIONS ARE ENLIGHTENING AND CONTRARY TO POPULAR MISCONCEPTIONS, ON THE TOPIC.  


FAN,

I respectfully request that you share with the Board ANY AND ALL information from what you read in those volumes which MIGHT support either:
- the idea that enslaved Africans in the South had a "true choice" (see my note to y04) to join either army
OR
- the claim that the number of Africans/Blacks in the CSA Army was more than a mere fraction of Blacks/Africans in the Union Army
OR
- that there were Black/African units in the CSA Army
OR
- that there were a significant number of ARMED Blacks in the CSA Army.

Any or all such information will be greatly appreciated by this poster and, I am sure, others.

O0

AS I HAVE STATED I AM A CIVIL WAR BUFF AND HAVE A LOT OF BOOKS ON THE SUBJECT, IN MY PERSONAL LIBRARY.  HAVE BEEN INTERESTED IN THIS TOPIC FOR OVER 30 YRS, ESPECIALLY AFTER I FOUND OUT PURELY BY ACCIDENT THAT AN ANCESTOR OF MINE WAS IN THE UNION ARMY's U.S. COLORED TROOPS (USCT) STATIONED NEAR WASHINGTON, DC, DURING THE CIVIL WAR; (1863-1864).  I HAVE SOME MORE TITLES AT HOME THAT I WILL POST HERE LATER TONIGHT, FOR THE EDIFICATION AND EDUCATION OF ALL.  TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTIONS ABOVE WILL TAKE SOME TIME AND EFFORT TO QUOTE SPECIFC SECTIONS AND PARAGRAPHS,  BUT I WILL GIVE YOU SUMMARY RESPONSES, BASED ON WHAT I HAVE PERSONALLY READ.  

- the idea that enslaved Africans in the South had a "true choice" (see my note to y04) to join either army - THEY HAD NO TRUE CHOICE.  MOST WERE FORCED,  HOWEVER SOME ACTUALLY VOLUNTEERED OUT OF A TRUE SENSE OF PERVERTED LOYALTY AND A REAL DESIRE TO PROTECT "THEIR" HOMELAND FROM INVADING YANKEES.

OR
- the claim that the number of Africans/Blacks in the CSA Army was more than a mere fraction of Blacks/Africans in the Union Army

I READ NO EVIDENCE THAT THAT THE NUMBER OF BLACKS IN THE CONFEDERATE ARMY EVER NUMBERED MORE THAN 5,000.  HOWEVER, THERE IS DOCUMENT PROOF THAT THE NUMBER OF BLACKS SERVING IN THE UNION ARMY AND NAVY WAS JUST OVER 200,000 OR APPROXIMATELY 20% OF THE ENTIRE UNION FORCES IN THE FIELD DURING THE ENTIRE CONFLICT.

OR
- that there were Black/African units in the CSA Army - THERE IS NO KNOWN DOCUMENTED EVIDENCE OF ALL-BLACK/AFRICAN UNITS IN THE CSA.   ALL BLACK UNITS WERE LED BY WHITE OFFICERS AND NON-COMMISSIONED OFFICERS.

OR
- that there were a significant number of ARMED Blacks in the CSA Army.  -- THERE WERE 3 DOCUMENTED ARMED BLACK CSA UNITS, LED BY WHITE OFFICERS AND THE BLACKS WERE REQUIRED TO TURNOVER THEIR WEAPONS TO WHITE OFFICERS WHEN NOT ENGAGED IN COMBAT OPERATION.  THE LOGISTICS OF THAT NON-SENSE IF AN ATTACK WERE IMMINENT OR AN UNEXPECTED ATTACK OCCURRED BORDERS ON THE INANE AND HILARIOUS.  I CAN JUST IMAGINE THIS CONVERSATION BETWEEN BLACK CSA SOLDIER AND WHITE CSA OFFICER AT 3:00 AM, "MASSA, WAKE UP! I HEARED DEM YANKEES IS A-COMING CAN I HAS MY GUN NOW?".   :lmao:

MOST BLACK IN THE CSA WERE IN LABOR AND ENGINEER UNITS CONSTRUCTING RAMPARTS, FORTS, BUILDING ROAD BARRIERS, OR ACTING AS STEVEDORES, NON-ARMED PICKETS, FORCED LABORERS, PATROLLERS, SPIES OR ASSIGNED TO STEAL UNION SUPPLIES.  TOWARDS THE END OF THE CONFLICT WHEN THE SOUTH FULLY REALIZED THE END WAS NEAR,  SOME CSA GENERALS WANTED TO FORM ALL BLACK UNITS LED BY THEIR BEST "DARKIES" (AUTHORS AND NOT MY WORDS).   JEFFERSON DAVIS IS SUSPOSED TO HAVE SERIOUSLY CONSIDERED THIS OPTION BUT THE WAR ENDED WITH LEE'S SURRENDER IN APRIL 1865, BEFORE HE COULD ACT.  EARLIER SOME CSA GENERALS WERE ACTUALLY RELIEVED OF COMMAND FOR PROPOSING THE SAME THINGS IN 1863.  MANY BLACKS BELIEVED BECAUSE OF PREVAILING SOUTHERN PROPOGANDA THAT YANKEES WERE LESS THAT HUMAN AND THAT THEIR CHANCES WERE BETTER SERVED WITH A WHITE MAN THEY KNEW AS OPPOSED TO WHITE MEN THEY DIDN'T KNOW!  REMEBER, BY THE CIVIL WAR MOST BLACKS HAD BEEN EFFECTIVELY BEEN SEPARATED FROM MOST OF THEIR PRIDE, HERITAGE AND CUSTOMS FROM AFRICA.  THEY THOUGHT OF THEMSELVES AS " 'MERICANS" AND NOT AFRICANS.   EVEN THOUGH MOST HAD NO REAL CONCEPT OF WHAT AMERICAN CITIZENSHIP ACTUALLY ENTAILED.   I LEARNED FROM READING THESE BOOKS THAT IT IS VERY DIFFICULT FOR BLACKS TODAY WITH 20TH CENTURY PERSPECTIVES AND SENSIBILITIES TO CRITCALLY AND IMPARTIALLY JUDGE THE MOTIVATIONS OF OUR ANCESTORS WITH THEIR 19TH CENTURY PERSPECTIVES OF WHAT WAS OR WAS NOT ACTUALLY ATTAINABLE.     WHENEVER, I HEAR BLACKS TODAY SAY "MAN IF I HAD BEEN A SLAVE BACK THEN, I WOULD HAVE KICKED MASSA'S a**  OR DID THIS, THAT AND THE OTHER...."   I JUST SMILE TO MYSELF
AT ALL THE FALSE BRAVADO.

Any or all such information will be greatly appreciated by this poster and, I am sure, others.

FAN,

This response on the previous page along with the other one in which you shared some book titles ARE VERY MUCH APPRECIATED!!!

Your knowledge of the subject is obviously deep as well as broad.  I missed it (been traveling and working on other projects, so I am just coming back to read your posts in depth) and am hoping that other O-dan posters will read the entirety of both of your posts.

VERY INFORMATIVE!!!!!

THANK YOU!!!

THANK YOU!!!

O0
Long Live Killmonger!

Offline Bison66

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ONCE AGAIN, CIAA FAN:

THANK YOU VERY MUCH for your earlier posts in this thread!!!!


Here follows a comprehensive look at the alleged fighting of Blacks for the Confederacy, including exposing outright attempts to distort the historical record as part of a revisionist effort to justify or ameliorate the Confederacy's reputation,

Quote
A great deal of the misinformation about this subject can be traced to the United Daughters of the Confederacy and Sons of Confederate Veterans.  

Motives are pretty clear.

Quote
A few of you have asked if I could put together an overview of the many posts that I’ve done on the subject of black Confederates.  This is a start and it’s something that I will come back to to update and expand.  This will hopefully answer common questions that new readers have about my own position on this subject as well as provide a reliable list of resources for further reading.  You can find a link to this post in the navigation menu at the top of the page.

Overview
Regular readers of this blog are all too familiar with the frequency of posts on the hot topic of black Confederates.  It is safe to say that the largest number of posts on this blog have been devoted to the subject and collectively constitute what I hope is a helpful resource for those who are trying to wade through the morass that defines this divisive topic and public debate.  With so much attention focused on this subject it may be difficult for readers to know where to begin.  This page is meant to serve as a road map to help readers to better understand the evolution of my own thought about this subject as well as advice on where to go for credible information and what to avoid.  I should point out that my writing on this subject is not meant or intended as an authoritative or final word on the subject.  I’ve used this blog to ask questions and to offer some of my own ideas about various aspects of the subject and on how others have approached the subject.

Content
You will find a wide range of posts on this issue, but all of them revolve around a basic assumption that this subject is part of a broader discussion of slavery and race relations during the Civil War.  Most of the posts on this site can be found under a category heading, titled, “black Confederates.” [Keep in mind that you are reading them in the reverse order in which they were published.]  I suggest that you begin with my two earliest posts on the subject in which I begin to sketch out my own interest in the subject in response to the publication of Bruce Levine’s book, Confederate Emancipation [Part 1 and Part 2 and here].  One of the biggest problems is the lack of any consensus on language and how to describe the presence of free and enslaved blacks in Confederate armies.  In my view we must begin by assuming that blacks were not soldiers based both on the refusal on the part of the Confederate government as well as the almost complete lack of wartime evidence (enlistment papers/muster rolls, etc.)
http://cwmemory.com/2010/08/31/black-confederate-resources/

This historian blogger cites a fairly new book which attempts to verify from original records whether or not Blacks fought for the CSA.  (Once again, y04's thread title seems inaccurate, but it is likely THIS TIME an honest mistake because of all the MISinformation being circulated.)
Bruce Levine’s Confederate Emancipation: Southern Plans to Free and Arm Slaves During the Civil War


Quote
Bruce Levine does two things in his article, “In Search of a Usable Past: Neo-Confederates and Black Confederates” which is included in the edited volume Slavery and Public History.  (See two earlier posts on this book – here and here.)  First, he sketches the reasons behind the continued claims of Black Confederates and later provides a short overview of the actual debate that took place in the Confederacy (from the beginning of the war) over whether to recruit blacks into the army.  Those interested in a more complete account of the actual debate should read Confederate Emancipation.

What I like about the structure of Levine’s article is his decision not to take on Neo-Confederate claims of Black Confederates directly.  And the reason is because it is unproductive to do so.  Consider the standard approach to this debate.  Individual stories are cited as evidence of a certain conclusion, but there is almost always no critical discussion of the origin of the source or whether the account really implies only one conclusion.
http://cwmemory.com/2006/06/08/blacks-in-gray-or-enough-is-enough/

Here is the "summary" of the book from the Amazon site:
Quote
In early 1864, as the Confederate Army of Tennessee licked its wounds after being routed at the Battle of Chattanooga, Major-General Patrick Cleburne (the "Stonewall of the West") proposed that "the most courageous of our slaves" be trained as soldiers and that "every slave in the South who shall remain true to the Confederacy in this war" be freed.
In Confederate Emancipation, Bruce Levine looks closely at such Confederate plans to arm and free slaves. He shows that within a year of Cleburne's proposal, which was initially rejected out of hand, Jefferson Davis, Judah P. Benjamin, and Robert E. Lee had all reached the same conclusions. At that point, the idea was debated widely in newspapers and drawing rooms across the South, as more and more slaves fled to Union lines and fought in the ranks of the Union army. Eventually, the soldiers of Lee's army voted on the proposal, and the Confederate government actually enacted a version of it in March. The Army issued the necessary orders just two weeks before Appomattox, too late to affect the course of the war. Throughout the book, Levine captures the voices of blacks and whites, wealthy planters and poor farmers, soldiers and officers, and newspaper editors and politicians from all across the South. In the process, he sheds light on such hot-button topics as what the Confederacy was fighting for, whether black southerners were willing to fight in large numbers in defense of the South, and what this episode foretold about life and politics in the post-war South.
Confederate Emancipation offers an engaging and illuminating account of a fascinating and politically charged idea, setting it firmly and vividly in the context of the Civil War and the part played in it by the issue of slavery and the actions of the slaves themselves.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0195147626/104-4501786-2985545?v=glance&n=283155

Interesting stuff.

From the evidence and the reported LACK OF EVIDENCE, IMO it is safe to conclude that Blacks did NOT FIGHT for the CSA in any appreciable numbers.

So, the title of THIS thread is pretty much MOOT!!
O0
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Offline y04185

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B66, how much was the CSA paying these slaves vs what they would have made fighting for the Union?  Also, why would they not fight for the CSA if it would make them free?

You are looking at a 19th century problem with 21st century logic.  It won't work.  You have to put yourself in the 19th century.

Fayetteville State by choice. Bronco by the Grace of GOD.

Offline Bison66

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Dude,

Any logic I might use is better than NO LOGIC AT ALL.

You REFUSE to address the question I asked you years ago and STILL REFUSE to address it.

You say:
Quote
The choice was crystal clear.  He had a choice of fighting for the Union for 10 dollars a month or the south for 30.  That was the choice.
 

But you CANNOT LOGICALLY AND FACTUALLY address what I put to you:
Quote
y04,

I know that you INSIST on not being taken seriously, but please make an exception so that you can claim at least ONE INSTANCE where you were actually able to back up what you were saying with logic and/or facts.

Here is what I originally asked you about "the choice" which you assert enslaved Blacks in the South had:

Quote
"In what context are you speaking when you say, " the slave was getting off the plantation.  he had a choice.  go to the union side for ten dollars a month or go to the confederate side for thirty dollars a month." ??

"Choice"?  As in "freedom" of movement?  You speak as if slaves were already freed under the CSA."


More concretely, let me say that the "choice" you mention is between:
1) running away (risking severe punishment, including maiming, and leaving children and loved ones), making way through somewhat unknown territory during war time with troops on patrol, sneaking through Confederate Army lines to get to Union lines without knowing for sure they could get in the Army to be paid (many Blacks were not accepted).
vs.
2) raising their hands to volunteer for the CSA AND being paid with the knowledge, since you say they were so well informed*, that if the South lost, they would be freed anyway and, if the South won, they'd expect some "return on their investment."

But my larger point is that enslaved Africans did not have freedom of movement to exercise what might have been their "true" choice.

Answers?

You couldn't explain that more than 4 years ago and you can't explain it now. 
Can you?

Each and EVERY time you ignore this most salient point, you demonstrate AGAIN to everyone reading this thread that you REFUSE TO FACE THE FACTS - as they existed in the 19th Century.

But beyond all of that, the FACTS AND LOGIC demonstrate beyond a reasonable doubt that VERY FEW (A RELATIVELY MINISCULE NUMBER) BLACKS FOUGHT for the CSA.

If the choice was so easy and clear and based on higher pay - as you seem to suggest - how come tens of thousands of our Ancestors took the more risky option of escaping and fighting for the Union?

Moreover, evidence indicates that many slaves were impressed (forced) into CSA's service (to build fortifications, etc.) WITHOUT PAY AND EVEN WITHOUT COMPENSATION TO THEIR OWNERS.

Instead of mindlessly repeating ad nauseam your COMPLETELY UNSUBSTANTIATED "point", why don't you post some evidence to support your OPINION?  (No fair using FAN's info!)
O0

Long Live Killmonger!

Offline ncsiacfan

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When I first read that Graves Hall, the very symbol of Morehouse College was built on the site of a cemetery for Black Confederate dead, I wrote and asked if they could document that? I had been a history major at Morehouse and taught by two past presidents of the Association for the Study of Afro American Life and History and I had never heard of this. They did not answer. I then wrote and said "if you can't document it, you should take it down". I knew that blacks served the Confederacy and I understand the circumstances. I also remember reading that towards the end of the war, the prospect of enlisting blacks in exchange for their freedom was discussed and rejected by General Robert E. Lee.

Offline Bison66

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ncsiacfan,

GOOD WORK!!!

Did they ever respond?
Did they remove or back up the claim about the "Black Confederates"?

Are you planning to follow up?  If so, can I help?

All,

If you have an interest in this subject and, like me, wish to learn more about (and perhaps counteract) the revisionist efforts of Neo-Confederates to whitewash (pun intended) the Confederacy with distortions and outright falsehoods, PLEASE take a look at this blog:

Another Black Confederate? (Part 1 of 9)

Quote
There is something profoundly disturbing about the concerted effort on the part of the Sons of Confederate Veterans to distort the past so as to assuage their deepest insecurities. A quick perusal of their websites and the uninformed are left believing that the Confederacy was anti-slavery and that free blacks and slaves were some of their most loyal citizens.  Of course, such a view is possible only in an interpretive world that is isolated from the rest of American history and absent of any serious historical analysis.  Such is the case when it comes to their obsession with black Confederates...

...This is not about history in any shape or form.  In fact, if you were to do even a cursory study of the level of analysis that typically accompanies these stories on the Internet you will see that these people actually have no interest in historical truth...

...It’s bad enough that the SCV has little respect or even understanding of what is involved in serious historical scholarship, but what makes it worse is their lack of respect for the memory of Weary Clyburn.  Again, don’t be fooled they have no interest in telling his story or the lives of other so-called black Confederates.  In just about every case that I’ve come across there is no account from the individual in question and yet the SCV feels justified in assuming what motivated them to “serve.”  In the end all they manage to do is distort and demean their memory.
http://cwmemory.com/2008/07/15/another-black-confederate-part-1-of-9/

The following is extracted from PART TWO of that series.  I ask y04 to substitute his own name for that of "Edgerton", who is a Black Confederate Reenactor and think about his own motivations and mindset.

Quote
What I find so depressing at the root of all of this is the apparent desperation on the part of Edgerton to find a home in the past through a white narrative of the Civil War that tends to ignore both the role of slavery as its cause and the importance of emancipation followed by the continued struggles for basic civil rights by African Americans after the Civil War. It’s as if those who push the black Confederate story are only willing to acknowledge black agency if it somehow conforms in a way that supports their own []white Confederate] agenda.  From what we know tens of thousands of black slaves risked their lives by running away from their farms and plantations towards Union lines.  If that isn’t a story that begs for some kind of personal identification I don’t know what is.  Why doesn’t Edgerton march across the South with that message?  If our broader national narrative is about the struggle to realize our founding principles as contained in the Declaration of Independence than the story of African Americans has much to teach us.

Edgerton’s overly zealous identification can be seen as evidence that black Americans have a deep need to connect with the American past.  But if that past has been sharply edited and controlled by one race as a means to maintain a racial hierarchy than is it any surprise that Edgerton is willing to interact with white Southerners who, for a number of reasons, are pushing the wild conclusion that large numbers of black Southerners fought in Confederate armies?  I wonder whether he was taught about the multiple and meaningful ways in which slaves and other free black Americans influenced the outcome of the Civil War and added to our national narrative.  Is glory and admiration really only to be found in a story that is so far-fetched that only a small handful of people support?
http://cwmemory.com/2008/07/17/if-i-had-known-this-it-would-have-taken-away-the-inevitability-that-i-was-going-to-be-nothing/

This short video from the 2008 African heritage/DNA series on PBS is relevant here and I will also post it in two other relevant threads:
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/aalives/

IF NOTHING ELSE, GO TO THE 6:03 MARK TO HEAR CHRIS ROCK SAY
"IF I Had Known This
It Would Have Taken Away the Inevitability
That I Was Going to Be Nothing.”

THAT is one of the most profound, moving and succinct summations of the critical importance of a full understanding of history I have ever heard.  The ramifications of that statement on all the little boys and girls of African heritage are enormous and it reminds us of how much is to be done.

A LUTA CONTINUA!!!  THE STRUGGLE CONTINUES!!!

A LUTA TUSHINDE MBILISHAKA!!!  WE WILL WIN WITHOUT A DOUBT!!!
O0

P.S. Oldsport, do you still have NO interest in learning about your African ancestry and remain interested ONLY in your European DNA?

P.P.S.  highlander, if you are still lurking here, please reread what Chris Rock said and recall our discussion of the importance of history (which, in fairness, you claimed you understood).
Long Live Killmonger!

Offline ncsiacfan

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Bison 66, no Morehouse did not respond to me. I would be happy for you to take this up. I stopped asking and don't know what they are doing now. I hate to say it, but I find it easier to communicate with the Chancellor of North Carolina Central University than the higher ups at Morehouse. And did I not tell you before? She has Howard in her crosshairs and you see that the enrollment is booming. But I do want black people to know about our accomplishment's. Black troops led the charge at Petersburg where they blew the great hole in the ground which you can see if you tour the battlefield. I think the union picket line ran down the back of the current Morehouse campus and there is a marker on the street corner next to Forbes Area which I think is for that.

Offline Bison66

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Bison 66, no Morehouse did not respond to me. I would be happy for you to take this up. I stopped asking and don't know what they are doing now. I hate to say it, but I find it easier to communicate with the Chancellor of North Carolina Central University than the higher ups at Morehouse. And did I not tell you before? She has Howard in her crosshairs and you see that the enrollment is booming. But I do want black people to know about our accomplishment's. Black troops led the charge at Petersburg where they blew the great hole in the ground which you can see if you tour the battlefield. I think the union picket line ran down the back of the current Morehouse campus and there is a marker on the street corner next to Forbes Area which I think is for that.

As a retired University executive, I can tell you that most institutions are more likely to respond with action to internal constituencies than external ones, like alumni.

I would suggest the history department as your entry point along with whatever student history group exists.  This effort could become an excellent faculty-guided student research project with tremendous learning experience. 

There could be a series of seminars on related topics, but anchored in this (apparently) long held belief about a Black Confederate cemetery beneath a Morehouse building.  Finding out if it is fact or myth would be a service to historical accuracy.

2015 will be 150 years after the end of the Civil War, so it is perfect timing.

If you know an especially Afrocentric dept head (preferably) or faculty member (preferably in history), that would be a good place to start.  Sometimes a student govt leader can be a key person. 

There is also the possibility that Spelman students (faculty?) would be interested in getting involved. 

Those are my best suggestions off the top of my head and based on my experiences.

Since I have been retired for a decade, I no longer have good contacts at Morehouse or Spelman - with one exception.  I will be happy to reach out to her (at Spelman) in support of your efforts once you've initiated them.  Let me know.

O0
Long Live Killmonger!

Offline ncsiacfan

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Bison 66, I would welcome anything you could do. I think that Morehouse needs that.

Offline Bison66

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I can only take a support role once you, as a Morehouse Alum, get it rolling.
And that's the way it ought to be IMO.

O0
Long Live Killmonger!

 

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