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Author Topic: Which HBCUs are legit D1 and which should drop to D2?  (Read 3071 times)

Offline TheBlackPanther

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Re: Which HBCUs are legit D1 and which should drop to D2?
« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2018, 09:59:35 AM »
If we're being 100% honest, none of the current D1 HBCU's have the budgets to truly be competitive in all sports with PWI's. Not a single one of them. And if we're still being honest, just about every last DII HBCU (my alma mater included) would probably find more success at the NAIA level.

We can sit around here and pretend like some HBCU's are on a different level but the truth is we're all in the same boat when it comes to athletics. Some of us just get lucky more than others. I'm sure my opinion is an unpopular one but I've always felt this way.

The truth will set you free...but first it's going to piss you off.  Into to Lemon

From a business standpoint you are totally correct.  BUT......tradition, pride and other factors will keep programs living the D1 dream on a D2 budget.  Just imagine a fully funded MEAC or SWAC team dropping down to D2 CIAA or SIAC...with good facilities?

What are the top 3 reasons to be D1?  Be honest.  Exposure?  Revenue? Level of competition? What???

I don't expect any DI HBCU's to drop down to DII in the near future even though I can think of a couple in particular that just might have to close their doors if they don't figure something out soon. "Pride" sums it all up IMO. I think being a DI HBCU is mostly about pride. It would have to be, wouldn't it? Because our schools damn sure aren't making any money by getting their butts handed to them by these Power 5 schools. And it's not like playing these bigs schools has landed us any major recruits. How many times has ESPN clowned on Savannah State for getting destroyed by a big school over the years? How is that good exposure?

Offline Que82

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Re: Which HBCUs are legit D1 and which should drop to D2?
« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2018, 10:09:13 AM »
Maybe Hampton and Howard, but not all. :nono2:

In my view, the legitimate D1 programs are Grambling, NC A&T, NC Central, Prairie View A&M, Southern
and Tennessee State.

The programs that clearly should drop to D2 are Alabama A&M, Arkansas-Pine Bluff, Coppin State, Maryland Eastern Shore, and Mississippi Valley State.

All of the others could go in either direction.
This joker here  :lol:  Strange how he put us out there but SCSU & Del State can go either way????  :crazy:  Leave it to Ole Mr. Voyeurism.  :lol:

I put Alabama A&M out because you have the LOWEST budget in ALL of D1 athletics. :tiptoe:

I am talking about all-around athletic programs, which of course are driven by football and basketball revenues. It is a myth of assumed inferiority that all HBCUs are not resourced to be competitive as D1s. Let me prove it.

Prairie View has a budget stronger than Citadel, Jacksonville State, Eastern Washington, and Weber State. NC Central and Southern have stronger budgets than VMI, Idaho State, and McNeese State. NC A&T just beat an FBS East Carolina team that punished UNC. Some HBCUs like Grambling do not have great budgets but still historically manage to be pretty competitive. Tennessee State and even Alabama State have bonafide FCS resources and facilities. If Alabama A&M has made ripples in D1, then please inform me.

Look at the budget numbers here: http://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/finances/
Please cite the methodology in this report that makes it a determining factor as to whether a school should be D1 or D2 or any level for that reason. If our athletics budget (in almost 20 years as a D1) is low but we have not been in any financial difficulty, we are expanding our educational offers, building new facilities/dorms, not dropping in enrollment, what concern is it of yours what level we play on???? Not that I'm against dropping down because I would have no problem going back to the SIAC.  The report indicated that Bama state had the exact amount of revenue as they had in expenses. How is that possible ???? :shrug: Our facilities are on par with or better than most of the HBCU FCS campuses I've been to (i.e. better than Howard's. :shrug:) Given all the indepth research and thought it appears you have put into this opinion,  I will be sure to file it right next to your opinion of my photos.
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Online ‘87 Alum

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Re: Which HBCUs are legit D1 and which should drop to D2?
« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2018, 10:19:36 AM »
Legit? What’s the baseline definition of “legit”?



Offline punchy

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Re: Which HBCUs are legit D1 and which should drop to D2?
« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2018, 10:28:17 AM »
If the total revenue and total expenses are the same, what does that mean? They just break even? Or is it a cover up?
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Offline Jay_Thomas

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Re: Which HBCUs are legit D1 and which should drop to D2?
« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2018, 10:47:42 AM »
Legit? What’s the baseline definition of “legit”?


Thats a great question and I always ask the same every football season when this question comes up. Interesting that this seems to be the only time of the year that it comes up so I GUESS that the focus is on football performance, preparedness, BUDGET, facilities, etc?   :shrug:

So is the premise that you are ONLY  legitimate based on your win-loss record? OR based on how bad you get beat ? 

Offline AimHigh

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Re: Which HBCUs are legit D1 and which should drop to D2?
« Reply #20 on: September 17, 2018, 11:01:32 AM »
The baseline of "legit" is whether you have the a) resources to be b) competitive, so it is a two-part equation.

It is a myth of assumed inferiority that all HBCUs are not resourced to be competitive as D1s. :nono2:

Prairie View has a budget stronger than Citadel, Jacksonville State, Eastern Washington, and Weber State. NC Central and Southern have stronger budgets than VMI, Idaho State, and McNeese State. NC A&T just beat an FBS East Carolina team that punished UNC. Some HBCUs like Grambling do not have great budgets but still historically manage to be pretty competitive. Tennessee State and even Alabama State have bonafide FCS resources and facilities.

Look at the budget numbers here: http://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/finances/ :read:

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Re: Which HBCUs are legit D1 and which should drop to D2?
« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2018, 11:27:30 AM »
So the majoral foci of your definition is fiscal resources and the appearance that some are doing way more with less resources vs others doing way less with more resources, right?


Offline punchy

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Re: Which HBCUs are legit D1 and which should drop to D2?
« Reply #22 on: September 17, 2018, 12:04:00 PM »
Budgets be damned! On Any Given Saturday,,,,,,,,,,,
Failing to plan is planning to fail.

Offline DOOMSDAY

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Re: Which HBCUs are legit D1 and which should drop to D2?
« Reply #23 on: September 17, 2018, 12:07:53 PM »
...you can get your anus pushed out your mouth.

Budgets are very important.  As are the tools to properly research them:

https://ope.ed.gov/athletics/#/

Prairie View ain't outspending Jacksonville State in nuffin.

Offline AimHigh

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Re: Which HBCUs are legit D1 and which should drop to D2?
« Reply #24 on: September 17, 2018, 12:24:44 PM »
Maybe Hampton and Howard, but not all. :nono2:

In my view, the legitimate D1 programs are Grambling, NC A&T, NC Central, Prairie View A&M, Southern
and Tennessee State.

The programs that clearly should drop to D2 are Alabama A&M, Arkansas-Pine Bluff, Coppin State, Maryland Eastern Shore, and Mississippi Valley State.

All of the others could go in either direction.
This joker here  :lol:  Strange how he put us out there but SCSU & Del State can go either way????  :crazy:  Leave it to Ole Mr. Voyeurism.  :lol:

I put Alabama A&M out because you have the LOWEST budget in ALL of D1 athletics. :tiptoe:

I am talking about all-around athletic programs, which of course are driven by football and basketball revenues. It is a myth of assumed inferiority that all HBCUs are not resourced to be competitive as D1s. Let me prove it.

Prairie View has a budget stronger than Citadel, Jacksonville State, Eastern Washington, and Weber State. NC Central and Southern have stronger budgets than VMI, Idaho State, and McNeese State. NC A&T just beat an FBS East Carolina team that punished UNC. Some HBCUs like Grambling do not have great budgets but still historically manage to be pretty competitive. Tennessee State and even Alabama State have bonafide FCS resources and facilities. If Alabama A&M has made ripples in D1, then please inform me.

Look at the budget numbers here: http://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/finances/
Please cite the methodology in this report that makes it a determining factor as to whether a school should be D1 or D2 or any level for that reason. If our athletics budget (in almost 20 years as a D1) is low but we have not been in any financial difficulty, we are expanding our educational offers, building new facilities/dorms, not dropping in enrollment, what concern is it of yours what level we play on???? Not that I'm against dropping down because I would have no problem going back to the SIAC.  The report indicated that Bama state had the exact amount of revenue as they had in expenses. How is that possible ???? :shrug: Our facilities are on par with or better than most of the HBCU FCS campuses I've been to (i.e. better than Howard's. :shrug:) Given all the indepth research and thought it appears you have put into this opinion,  I will be sure to file it right next to your opinion of my photos.

Here you go Que:

http://sports.usatoday.com/2018/06/28/methodology-for-2017-ncaa-athletic-department-revenue-database/

Offline Ram55

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Re: Which HBCUs are legit D1 and which should drop to D2?
« Reply #25 on: September 17, 2018, 12:53:19 PM »
There is a misconception that if our larger HBCUs were to move down, they would dominate DII football. Well that is a bunch of bull. We would still get our butts kicked. The better DII schools are light years better than most of our HBCU DI schools.  Sure, we would get lucky from time to time and be able to compete for a few years, but that wouldn't last long. We would have robbed Peter to pay Paul during those few years... similar to what WSSU was doing during our national run.

Offline WileECoyote06

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Re: Which HBCUs are legit D1 and which should drop to D2?
« Reply #26 on: September 17, 2018, 01:19:13 PM »
I like being in Division I.  Some thoughts:

Our spending in both the MEAC and the SWAC places us at the low end of Division I expenditures.  Especially schools that sponsor football.

Being in DI is kind of a catch-22.  If athletics is the front door to the university and drives enrollment, then the athletic classification that gets the most exposure is Division I.  It's not a coincidence that nine of the ten largest HBCUs are all in Division I.  Strangely enough, several of the largest HBCUs have lost enrollment over the past five years.  If we can correct that issue, then spending should increase and as a by-product, our competitiveness.

IMHO, FCS is an unsustainable business model and will soon subdivide.  It makes no sense to have teams spending FBS money in FCS.  When the dust settles, the HBCUs will join other like-minded cost-control conferences in Division I- FCS-AA or whatever it comes to be called.  This will also improve our competitiveness.

These are two of the main reasons my opinion on the Celebration Bowl changed.  For now, we have a way to generate revenue and gain exposure without breaking the bank to engage the current FCS "arms race."  NCCU and A&T have both realized a remarkable increase in admission applications.


No love for Chicago State........
  I think we ignore Chicago State sometimes, because it's not an HBCU.  It became predominantly black in the 1970s.






« Last Edit: September 17, 2018, 01:21:04 PM by WileECoyote06 »

Offline jag4life

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Re: Which HBCUs are legit D1 and which should drop to D2?
« Reply #27 on: September 17, 2018, 01:58:49 PM »
If the total revenue and total expenses are the same, what does that mean? They just break even? Or is it a cover up?

It means you planned well as a non-profit entity.

Offline Warpaint

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Re: Which HBCUs are legit D1 and which should drop to D2?
« Reply #28 on: September 17, 2018, 02:04:15 PM »
I like being in Division I.  Some thoughts:

Our spending in both the MEAC and the SWAC places us at the low end of Division I expenditures.  Especially schools that sponsor football.

Being in DI is kind of a catch-22.  If athletics is the front door to the university and drives enrollment, then the athletic classification that gets the most exposure is Division I.  It's not a coincidence that nine of the ten largest HBCUs are all in Division I.  Strangely enough, several of the largest HBCUs have lost enrollment over the past five years.  If we can correct that issue, then spending should increase and as a by-product, our competitiveness.

IMHO, FCS is an unsustainable business model and will soon subdivide.  It makes no sense to have teams spending FBS money in FCS.  When the dust settles, the HBCUs will join other like-minded cost-control conferences in Division I- FCS-AA or whatever it comes to be called.  This will also improve our competitiveness.

These are two of the main reasons my opinion on the Celebration Bowl changed.  For now, we have a way to generate revenue and gain exposure without breaking the bank to engage the current FCS "arms race."  NCCU and A&T have both realized a remarkable increase in admission applications.


No love for Chicago State........
  I think we ignore Chicago State sometimes, because it's not an HBCU.  It became predominantly black in the 1970s.

That's interesting and I didn't realize that.  Since the TMCF, HCASC, and NAAAHP all include Chicago State, I thought they were an HBCU.

Offline MilesBear1

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Re: Which HBCUs are legit D1 and which should drop to D2?
« Reply #29 on: September 17, 2018, 02:42:49 PM »
So Far only Savannah State have come to realize that they don't belong in D1 Sports. However there are others that would rather discontinue sports than to drop back to D2. Hell you came from D2 before you moved up to D1 Sports. :nod: :lol: :snicker But my list for drop back to D2 is

Football
Alabama A&M
MVSU
Jackson State
South Carolina State
Norfolk State
UAPB
Tennessee State
BCU
"The Bears Den" and "The ASU Hornets Hive", WSSU
"CME Bowl Champions for Life"
Steel City Classic Champions 01,02,03,05,06
2004 Alabama State University SWAC Champs
2007 Football Attendance Champs
2011,2013,2015 SIAC West Div. Football Champions
2011,2015 SIAC Football Champs
2011 Pioneer Bow

 

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