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Author Topic: "Why Hillary Clinton does not deserve the Black vote" by Michelle Alexander  (Read 6581 times)

Offline Blackcaesar2k5

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Kasich and his polices have ruined the Buckeye state. America would be best served by electing Democrat in the fall!!!

Offline DAW912

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Black America needs to revolt from the Democratic Party.  They have failed us on so many levels.  We should become Independents.  In doing so, we will gain political leverage and force both the Democratic and Republican Party( and the newly formed party after the GOP splits up) to add to the their respective platforms meaningful polices to address the issues we face that will empower us so that we can get off the government's tit.  

I've heard people express these sentiments  too many times to count.  What is being said sounds good when you say it real fast, but it is short on specifics

Maybe you can answer a couple of questions for me. You say Democrats have failed us on so many levels. What should the Democrats have done for Black people or what specifically have Democrats failed to do for Black people.

Specifically what "meaningful policies"  would you add to a Democratic or Republican platform and what issues would those policies address.

While you all are thinking, please tell me what Democratic policy caused all the neighborhood convenience stores in the Black community to be owned or run by Arabs.

 
Just look at the State of Black America?  A large and disproportionate number of blacks are poor, unemployed, in prison, strung out on drugs, and the public schools systems have failed.   Keep in mind, mostly under Democratic rule in our cities.  

Let's look at a few policies.

Entitlements -  Many blacks receive it.  And the system is set up in away that if a person who's on government assistance gets a job, their benefits are cut. Keep in mind we're talking about low wage, minimum wage jobs.  So,  it's more profitable not to work.  Secondly, more children equal more benefits.  So now you have a woman, who lives in public housing with all these children, in most cases with multiple baby daddies who can't legally live with their children.  Not only does this policy keep blacks dependent on the government, it also attacks the structure of family.  Some may agree or disagree.

Entrepreneurship/Jobs:  Why is it that Arabs or Asians can come to this country, open up businesses in our communities when we don't have the same opportunities?  We can't go into a bank and just apply for loan.  I live in a black and Jewish middle class neighborhood and every corner store in our area is owned by a foreigner.   And it's the same in "the hood."  In Savannah,  up until this last election, Democrats controlled the city government.  Savannah is roughly 60-35-3(blacks, whites, other), give or take.  Well, we protested/revolted in November and now we have a republican mayor and the Democratic council took a huge hit.  Our leadership took for us granted and was shown the door.  

Jobs:  Or should I say, unemployment.  Close to half of Black Americans are unemployed.  If that's not on the political party we support in astronomical numbers (90%), then all of the negative stereotypes attributed to blacks are true.  But it's not true.  The Democratic Party has made us out to be victims.

Civil Rights:  On the surface it seems that Democrats are great with this issue.  But the motives of their support of Civil Rights are less than noble.  This issue is intertwined with entitlements/jobs and the right to vote.  Why? Because they knew that if they were the party to make civil rights a reality, we would be loyal.  So we vote for them in exchange for entitlements and the right to vote, but no jobs.   This, in itself, is what racism is all about.
Racism isn't about Joe The Plumber calling you or I the n-word.  Joe is bigoted and prejudice, but not a racist.  To be a racist, one has to have the power to use one's bigotry and prejudices to SUPPRESS a group of people from obtaining resources, based on race.  All racists are bigots and prejudice, though.  

In short, the Dems have been taking the black vote for granted.  They throw us a bone or two every now and then, but if you look at the statistics, you will find that blacks are no better off economically today than we were pre civil rights and segregation.  At least back then, we actually spent money with each other, because we weren't allowed in many white owned businesses. We are losing big time.  If it's the the Democratic Party's fault, then who's to blame?
« Last Edit: March 06, 2016, 09:41:23 AM by DAW912 »
“At @TheSIAC media day, they wouldn’t even give us a table. They said, ‘you might want to ask one of the other schools if you can have a place to sit.’” — Coach Quinn

Offline DAW912

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B4L,

Sounds to me like we are approaching this from very different perspectives, but I might be wrong.

Let me speak for myself.

I come out of the protest tradition starting during my high school years in NYC in the early 60's.  I never became a Movement person, but I continued with various protests over the decades, including against police brutality in Washington state in the late 60's and in DC with the "Enough is Enough" protest at the US Capitol when Mamadou Diallo's mother spoke and was accompanied by her HU Law School attorney who lived in Drew Hall with me. (Only his nickname comes to mind right now:  "Barbarossa.")  In between I was part of a community group that sat in overnight at Brookdale Hospital in Brooklyn because they weren't serving the community in which they were located.  They made changes.

I led protests against Cornell University investments in Gulf Oil (due to their investments in Portuguese-ruled Angola) and picketed Gulf stations to increase awareness and urging people to cut up their Gulf credit crads. A year later Cornell sold their stock. I picketed the South African Embassy and was one of those hundreds of Black men who blocked the 14th Street Bridge during morning rush hour to highlight and protest all the guns being brought into the District from Virginia.  I was the only one in a suit and tie and had no money on me for my fine. (I was DEFINITELY  a moment!!!!  LOL!!  And was 'delayed' getting to work at HU that day.)  Bernie McCain and Rev Willie Wilson were the titular leaders and held an overnight locked-door meeting the night before.  I nicknamed us "The Brothers of the Bridge."

SNCC workers and CORE Freedom Riders often did not have bail money.  The NAACP sometimes stepped to the plate for bail as did Harry Belafonte and other "celebrities' of that day to offset expenses including I am sure, bail.

I have been part of "actions" (and in one particular 'militant' organization) where the stated policy was "Jail, No Bail!!"  The school children in B'ham FILLED the jails with no bail.  The foregoing about 'bail' is to say DEFINITIVELY that your comment about no bail is not a 'make or break' one - as you seem to suggest - in regard to whether something is a movement or not.

So, based on all of that,............
IMO BLM is NOT THE movement; it is a part of The Movement. 
If you want to debate your recently-raised issue of 'moment vs. movement,' I'm the wrong person to have it with.  That remains to be seen.

For example, when those 4 A&T Brothers started the modern sit-ins in Greensboro it was a moment that BECAME a movement that flowed into the broader Movement.  Time will tell with BLM.

"Revolutionary" is a much over-used and imprecise term, but what Revolutionaries are you alluding to who DID make arrangements for bail and to whom you contrast with BLM to the later's detriment???

And who said that BLM is "Revolutionary"?
They don't seem to be identifying as such - unless I missed it. At the link you shared, they say:  "It (BLM) is a tactic to (re)build the Black liberation movement.  When we say Black Lives Matter, we are talking about the ways in which Black people are deprived of our basic human rights and dignity."  Pulley, who declined the WH invitation, uses the word "revolutionary," but not quite in that context.

Naw, Brother, I have the strong feeling that there is something else behind your obvious disdain for and misgivings about the BLM.  Could be wrong,.....

Maybe our perspectives are just completely different on what a grass roots organization does early in its development.

When you got the cell number for BLM's co-founder and "could have called", did you call her to offer assistance, suggestions or moral support?

But now after all that YOU have said were BLM's accomplishments, you say BLM is "not a force" on the same day they are invited to meet the President in the White House.

Strike, I do hope we broke "new ground" for your consumption and further comment.  :)

O0

Bison66,



BLM doesn't feel organic to me at this time.  But some folks started screaming on social media and was "granted" de facto leadership status without being vetted.Mistake number one. Mistake number two if this was a organizational movement there should be guidelines on how to interact with the media and  how to deal with situations when situations go south.It feels and appears to be an event to take selfies and run back to class and say they've done something. While at the same time the other side is criminalizing BLM via media surrogates like Hannity and the rest. I hope this does not happen but if one of the leaders are shot and killed , then what?

You ask do I have a bias against BLM. I do not. What I am angry about is that every generation or so we make the same mistakes  in trying to move forward. I blame the generation before me who bought into integration and either spoke little or refused outright to talk about how they overcame segregation or Jim Crow. I blame this generation for not knowing it history. South Carolina State,Jackson State and Kent State were not that long ago. Don't think it can't happen again. Many police departments pull  from the military for SWAC and other tactical units. I worked with infantry, special forces and other fighting units. I've seen the mindset. They dehumanize the "enemy". We can't even se how the  chess board ifs being set up because we are being distracted by bullcrap like Beyonce at the Super Bowl or Kanye West rants.BLM will be the Willie Horton of  2016.
Whoever is running on the GOP side will use BLM for a "law and order"  platform just like Nixon did in 68. Whats worse they either are not listening or no one is pulling them aside to tell them its a set up.
Do you think BLM would have more credibility if they addressed the issue of black on black murders with the same vigor as they do when cops murder our children?  How can we expect other races to respect black lives when we have such a disregard for black lives? 
“At @TheSIAC media day, they wouldn’t even give us a table. They said, ‘you might want to ask one of the other schools if you can have a place to sit.’” — Coach Quinn

Offline Ken

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Sir for years= there have been many organizations who fight black on black crime, BLM is for justice for unarmed blacks who are shot by policeman.


Iam a physician we have organiaztions, that fight prostate cancer , colon cancer, heart disease-- no one is saying why are you fighting prostate cancer when you should be fighting heart disease----And again you guys are being fooled by the white information network-- homicides is a VERY SMALL PART OF CRIME-
most crime are robbery, rape and assaults, and white commit most of those crimes== did you know that whites have a problem with killing whites, just as blacks kill blacks-- caused people kill people that live in proximity to them-- Did you  know that 88% of the killer of police are whites???--Any whites forming organizations to stop that.?  My point is like most people, blacks can walk and chew gum at that same time.

Offline Wildman78

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DAW912, I asked you these questions:

What should the Democrats have done for Black people or what specifically have Democrats failed to do for Black people.

Specifically what "meaningful policies"  would you add to a Democratic or Republican platform and what issues would those policies address.

You sort of indirectly answered the first question, and you provided no answer whatsoever to the second question.

You listed many problems and concerns of the Black community, and make the leap in logic that it's  the fault of Democratic Party that these problems and concerns continue to exist. In my opinion, your argument is an example of the logical fallacy post hoc ergo propter hoc. In my opinion, you have shown very little, if any causal connection between Black people voting for Democrat and the problems facing the Black community or phrased differently, I don't think you've shown any causal connection between democratic policies and the plight the Black community.  

Using your logic, I guess one could list the all the problems of the Black community, and then argue that America has failed Black people;  Black leadership has failed Black people; or the Black church has failed Black people.


Quote
Just look at the State of Black America?  A large and disproportionate number of blacks are poor, unemployed, in prison, strung out on drugs, and the public schools systems have failed.   Keep in mind, mostly under Democratic rule in our cities.  

There is no Democratic policy that is causing people to be strung out on drugs or commit crimes. I don't think vouchers are  the answer to the  problems with urban public schools. In my opinion, the quality of a public school system has nothing to do with the political party of the school board members or the city or county commissioners.  Generally, public schools in affluent areas thrive and public schools in poor areas struggle. I don't see how you came blame the failure of Public Schools in poor urban areas solely on democratic policies.


Quote
Entitlements -  Many blacks receive it.  And the system is set up in away that if a person who's on government assistance gets a job, their benefits are cut. Keep in mind we're talking about low wage, minimum wage jobs.  So,  it's more profitable not to work.  Secondly, more children equal more benefits.  So now you have a woman, who lives in public housing with all these children, in most cases with multiple baby daddies who can't legally live with their children.  Not only does this policy keep blacks dependent on the government, it also attacks the structure of family.  Some may agree or disagree.

Not sure what your point is here? Democrats are more supportive of TANF and Food Stamps than Republicans. I think we can agree on that.  

Are you saying Democrats have failed Black people because there are not enough welfare benefits or are you saying the availability or welfare hurts Black people and should be eliminated?  

You say it's more profitable not to work.   I think you need to look at the TANF program. I think you may be inaccurate. I know each state is different but I believe the programs are set up where if you are a poor working person, you can still get food stamps.  I also think that you can't be on TANF for more than  5 years. And TANF is available for two parent homes that qualify.

http://www.cbpp.org/research/policy-basics-an-introduction-to-tanf

Georgia's TANF Eligibility Requirements:

In order to be determined eligible to receive TANF benefits, the following criteria must be met by the members of the assistance unit (family):.... In a two parent family in which both parents are able-bodied, deprivation is established if one parent has a “recent connection to the workforce.

http://dfcs.dhs.georgia.gov/tanf-eligibility-requirements



You suggest that the availability of welfare encourages Black women to have more babies. How come the availability of welfare benefits only makes Black women have a bunch a babies or make Black people lazy. No one ever says welfare makes White women have a bunch a babies, or makes White people lazy.

BTW, that whole thing about women having more babies for more benefits appears to be propoganda

This is old data:  Five Media Myths About Welfare

1. Poor women have more children because of the “financial incentives” of welfare benefits.

Repeated studies show no correlation between benefit levels and women’s choice to have children. (See, for example, Urban Institute Policy and Research Report, Fall/93.) States providing relatively higher benefits do not show higher birth rates among recipients.

In any case, welfare allowances are far too low to serve as any kind of “incentive”: A mother on welfare can expect about $90 in additional AFDC (Aid to Families with Dependent Children) benefits if she has another child.

http://fair.org/extra/five-media-myths-about-welfare/


more recent data: Your Assumptions About Welfare Recipients Are Wrong

And while the stereotype of the “welfare queen” is a woman who has more children to increase the benefits she gets from government programs, families who are enrolled look similar to those who aren’t. “Average family size was the same (3.7 persons), whether or not a family received assistance,” the report notes.

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2013/12/18/3081791/welfare-recipient-spending/

How is it the fault of the Democratic party that proportionally Blacks are more likely to receive TANF and Food Stamps?


Quote
Entrepreneurship/Jobs:  Why is it that Arabs or Asians can come to this country, open up businesses in our communities when we don't have the same opportunities?  We can't go into a bank and just apply for loan.  I live in a black and Jewish middle class neighborhood and every corner store in our area is owned by a foreigner.   And it's the same in "the hood."  In Savannah,  up until this last election, Democrats controlled the city government.  Savannah is roughly 60-35-3(blacks, whites, other), give or take.  Well, we protested/revolted in November and now we have a republican mayor and the Democratic council took a huge hit.  Our leadership took for us granted and was shown the door.  

What Democratic policy gives Arabs and Asians more opportunities to open businesses or to obtain jobs than Blacks?  What makes you assume that the same opportunities aren't available to Blacks. Please tell us what policies the new Republican mayor of Savannah going to implement to improve the opportunities for entrepreneurships and jobs for Blacks.


Who says Black people can't go into a bank and get a loan? People with bad credit and no collateral have problems getting loans. What has that got to do with the Democratic party?

Black people can't get jobs or start businesses without the help of a political party? Is that what you are saying?  
:shrug:  

What we do know for a fact is that the Democratic party is more supportive of minority set asides for government work than Republicans.


Quote
Jobs:  Or should I say, unemployment.  Close to half of Black Americans are unemployed.  If that's not on the political party we support in astronomical numbers (90%), then all of the negative stereotypes attributed to blacks are true.  But it's not true.  The Democratic Party has made us out to be victims.

A false dichotomy or false dilemma occurs when an argument presents two options and ignores, either purposefully or out of ignorance, other alternatives.

But first, lets hash out some more data

Black unemployment falls to lowest since 2007
January 8, 2016:

Black unemployment fell to 8.3% in December, down sharply from the 9.4% in November

Despite the progress, there was a lot of room for improvement. Blacks still have higher unemployment than every other demographic. White unemployment is 4.5%, Hispanic unemployment is 6.3% and Asian unemployment is 4%.

http://money.cnn.com/2016/01/08/news/economy/black-unemployment-falls-hits-8-year-low/index.html

In 1954, the earliest year for which the Bureau of Labor Statistics has consistent unemployment data by race, the white rate averaged 5% and the black rate averaged 9.9%. Last month, the jobless rate among whites was 6.6%; among blacks, 12.6%. Over that time, the unemployment rate for blacks has averaged about 2.2 times that for whites.

The widest gaps, when black unemployment was as much as 2.77 times that of white unemployment, came in the late 1980s, as the manufacturing sectors that employed disproportionate shares of African-Americans shriveled. The smallest gaps, ironically, came in the summer of 2009 during the Great Recession; white unemployment rose so high, so fast, that the black jobless rate was “only” 1.67 times higher.

The black-white unemployment gap appears to have emerged in the 1940s, according to a 1999 analysis of Census data. Although labor economists, sociologists and other researchers have offered many explanations for the persistent 2-to-1 gap — from the differing industrial distribution of black and white workers to a “skills gap” between them — there’s no consensus on causes

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/08/21/through-good-times-and-bad-black-unemployment-is-consistently-double-that-of-whites/

I don't think it's logical to lay the entire blame for the racial disparity in the unemployment rate at the feet of the democratic party. I think there are other variables at play.

White men with recent criminal histories are far more likely to receive calls back than black men with no criminal record at all.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/05/african-americans-with-college-degrees-are-twice-as-likely-to-be-unemployed-as-other-graduates/430971/


Please tell us what democratic policy has caused the gap in unemployment for over 60 years. Please tell us what policy any political party could adopt that would address this racial gap in unemployment. I personally think there are lot variables, including institutionalized racism.  How can you blame the Democratic party for not completely ending racism in hiring policies.  Another variable is that most of the time, we aren't doing one the hiring.


 
Quote
Civil Rights:  On the surface it seems that Democrats are great with this issue.  But the motives of their support of Civil Rights are less than noble.  This issue is intertwined with entitlements/jobs and the right to vote.  Why? Because they knew that if they were the party to make civil rights a reality, we would be loyal.  So we vote for them in exchange for entitlements and the right to vote, but no jobs.   This, in itself, is what racism is all about.
Racism isn't about Joe The Plumber calling you or I the n-word.  Joe is bigoted and prejudice, but not a racist.  To be a racist, one has to have the power to use one's bigotry and prejudices to SUPPRESS a group of people from obtaining resources, based on race.  All racists are bigots and prejudice, though.  

Not sure what your point is here.  Seems you are again blaming the Democratic party for the Black people being under employed.

I'll say that Jobs are tied into the health of the economy. The economy could be better. I wish there were more blue collar jobs available here in the U.S. However, I don't see how you can solely blame the Democrats for the state of the economy.

Black people vote for Democrats in overwhelming numbers simply Democratic policies are more in line with the attitudes of Mainstream Black America about how Government should function.

You want to see what Black people ask in exchange for their votes, go to the Black Caucus website. If don't think Black people are asking for enough in exchange for their vote, maybe you should call your nearest Black Congressional representative.


« Last Edit: March 15, 2016, 05:54:31 PM by Wildman78 »

Offline Bison66

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 :popcorn:
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BTW
Wildman, are we seeing the return of JJ from MEACFans re: his pet theory that voting for Dems IN AND OF ITSELF makes Africans/Blacks worse off?

O0

Offline Bison 4 Life

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Wildman78,


Thats a tsunami of quotes and text. What exactly are you saying? :shrug:

Offline Wildman78

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Wildman78,


Thats a tsunami of quotes and text. What exactly are you saying? :shrug:

The readers digest version: It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to blame the Democratic party for the all the problems in mainstream Black America.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2016, 10:34:50 AM by Wildman78 »

Offline Ken

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Especially when we are spending over $ 1 trillion dollars per year- that money is  going some where.

Offline Bison66

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Do you think BLM would have more credibility if they addressed the issue of black on black murders with the same vigor as they do when cops murder our children?  How can we expect other races to respect black lives when we have such a disregard for black lives? 

NO, DAW, I don't.

Ken explained why quite well.

O0

Offline Bison66

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PICKING UP FROM THE PREVIOUS PAGE...

I ended a post with this...
Quote
BLM and others are putting life and limb at risk in the streets these days confronting SWAT teams with the mindset you mentioned.  If we aren't gonna join 'em in the streets, the least we can do is respect their efforts and courage AND lend moral and/or material support when and where we can.

A VERY sharp Howard Alum, Dr. Jelani Cobb (a contemporary and running buddy of Ras Baraka - Black Nia Force!) has written a LONG piece for the New Yorker about the origins and internal & external struggles of the Black Lives Matter movement.  I've just started it, but it is, OF COURSE, quite well researched and written.

Check it out!
http://goo.gl/1RyJ9z


The article addresses several aspects that B4L and I and others have discussed.

Also an on-line friend (we have met in person once here in Panama) wrote this when he sent me the link to the article:

Quote
This is a fairly long New Yorker article (they are always ‘long’ in this magazine) on the history of ‘Black Lives Matter’. If you want to learn more about the origination of the name, its promoters, and the issues, events that triggered the ‘movement’ check it out. For those of you who have toiled in the bowels of ‘movement making’ it is a very good analysis of the internecine personality, inter-personal, status seeking/wanting, agenda setting ‘differences’ that can potentially derail ‘movement- making’ and the desire of potentially good people to ‘step up to the leadership’ plate.

More than anything... (reading it) carefully, this article is a reminder of how tough and complex ‘organizing’ across issues, people and communities’ can be. It can often lead to movement leaders ‘offing’ each other to the detriment of achieving the core objectives. In short ‘movement making is tough business. Without it we will remain loosely related victims of the ‘system’. Yet getting it ‘right’ and ‘sustainable’ over time by harnessing our collective strength is froth with pitfalls, chicanery, jealousy…and SELL-OUTs. This is perhaps the biggest burden we face…but like Sisyphus we must continue to roll this stone up the hill.

Hey Strike, if you think I am  :dedhorse:, I got something I will share with you and all.  LOL!!

O0

Offline soflorattler

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Man, y'all ran OS, Jr. off again... :no:

Offline Golden Kitten

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I love it when y'all go straight intellectual... ;) ;D


Teeny and Little

Offline EB

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Thanks for the link B66

Offline EB

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How Hillary Clinton Responded To An Innocent Man Who Spent Years On Death Row

by Kira Lerner Mar 14, 2016 10:26 am

The Democratic candidates have debated eight times and have held countless town halls and forums, and most questions they are asked are not new.

But on Sunday night, a man who spent 39 years in prison, including time on death row, for a crime he did not commit asked Hillary Clinton if she supports the death penalty. Clinton has struggled with questions about capital punishment in the past, and this was the first time she was presented with the question by a victim of the country’s broken justice system.

.....

 

 

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