Onnidan Fan Forum

Discussion => Politics => Topic started by: Bison66 on October 22, 2010, 09:30:07 PM

Title: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: Bison66 on October 22, 2010, 09:30:07 PM
If you ARE one of those who still believes the spin that the wealthy and their mouthpieces on The Right bamboozled you with that banks were forced to loan money to minorities for homes was the cause of the recent near total collapse of the financial system, then you have not availed yourself of the vast amount of information out there that shows otherwise.

Perhaps A MOVIE is the answer for you and here it is:
INSIDE JOB
Quote

So, basically what happened here is that these bums - these crooks in suits - these educated idiots - these morally depraved criminals - took everybody's money and gambled it every which way, knowing that no matter what happened, they'd get rich and everybody else would suffer. And so the economy caved, and they're still rich, and 30 million people worldwide have lost everything - their homes, their jobs, their place in the community, their vision of the future, their identity.

We know this already. We're all angry about it: Americans are good at getting angry. But there's such a thing as smart angry, and such a thing as stupid angry, and after seeing "Inside Job," audiences will be smart angry. They'll know specifically how bankers, traders and economists brought on the recession. They'll know who did it, and where to place the blame. They won't be barroom cynics or monkeys holding signs, but educated citizens.

"Inside Job" was directed by Charles Ferguson, who made the best and most clear-headed documentary about the Iraq war ("No End in Sight"). But this documentary on the financial crisis is an even more impressive work of journalism. To make it, he had to master a highly technical story before he could tell it to us in clear and concise terms. Indeed, he had to become such an expert that he could go head-to-head with bankers, economics professors and politicians and know exactly when they were attempting to confuse. He had to be able to challenge them when they were trying to lie.

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/10/22/MVET1FUOQM.DTL#ixzz138z5yMSd

And some folks say that govt is the problem!!!
O0
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: Black Panther40 on October 22, 2010, 09:59:07 PM
Good stuff.  I would like to watch it. 
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: uchighlander on October 25, 2010, 03:37:11 PM
I don't think any sensible person would deny the roll the banks and traders had in this melt down. However, why is it when a liberal is telling the story the always seem to leave out the roll of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac? GO VIKINGS!!!
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: Maroon and Gray on October 25, 2010, 04:13:19 PM
I don't think any sensible person would deny the roll the banks and traders had in this melt down. However, why is it when a liberal is telling the story the always seem to leave out the roll of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac? GO VIKINGS!!!

because gov't and pseudo gov't agencies can do no wrong.
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: Black Panther40 on October 25, 2010, 08:09:25 PM
Fannie and Freddie were enablers.  Like drug dealers on the corner peddling . . .

Yep, I said it . . .
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: Bison66 on October 26, 2010, 01:25:14 AM
Is this your evidence that the filmmaker is a liberal?
"To make it, he had to master a highly technical story before he could tell it to us in clear and concise terms. Indeed, he had to become such an expert that he could go head-to-head with bankers, economics professors and politicians and know exactly when they were attempting to confuse. He had to be able to challenge them when they were trying to lie."

I could see your point because it IS hard to imagine a Conservative doing that!

There's plenty of blame to go around, but it seems as if Freddie and Fannie had less to do with it than the other key players.

M&G and highlander, please recommend an article which you believe is fair and balanced.

I'll wait right here.

O0
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: Black Panther40 on October 28, 2010, 09:34:06 PM
Bison,

Try this on for size . . .

If you understand the concept of "bookmakers" on Wall Street, that is the same as Fannie and Freddie.  A deal maker MUST execute a trade, whether long or short, so the the markets operate in an orderly flow.  It smooths out price fluctuation. 

While Wall Street was cooking up different ways to split a buck with the mortgages, they KNEW they had a "catch all"  in that Fannie and Freddie would buy most of the deals.  I believe it was an unintended consequence of setting up an entity that would always serve as a market for these products, but the banks just played the hand that was dealt them. 

So, I don't think they werenefarious in their intent and existence, but they certainly contributed.

Lack of financial education, greed, and peer pressure are rarely given credit, but I don't know how to quantify that . . .
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: Bison66 on October 29, 2010, 04:24:42 AM
I won't pretend to have an in-depth understanding of the workings of Wall Street, altho I have dabbled in  stocks and even commodity futures.

Panther,

If you are saying that there were bankers and brokerages who took advantage of the repeal of Glass-Steagall and the existence and procedures of Fannie and Freddie designed for simpler times, that fits my understanding.

But since you seem knowledgeable, let me ask your opinion:  

Which was the more significant contributor to the collapse of the financial system:  sub-prime mortgages themselves OR the securitization of (and the related worthless "insurance" on) mortgages, where they were packaged, then sliced and diced and as a result there was no accountability for how good the mortgages really were?

Meanwhile....

M&G and highlander, please recommend an article which you believe is fair and balanced.

I'll wait right here.

STILL WAITING!

O0
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: Black Panther40 on October 29, 2010, 09:36:37 AM
...Panther,

If you are saying that there were bankers and brokerages who took advantage of the repeal of Glass-Steagall and the existence and procedures of Fannie and Freddie designed for simpler times, that fits my understanding.

But since you seem knowledgeable, let me ask your opinion:

Which was the more significant contributor to the collapse of the financial system:  sub-prime mortgages themselves OR the securitization of (and the related worthless "insurance" on) mortgages, where they were packaged, then sliced and diced and as a result there was no accountability for how good the mortgages really were?
...

We have the exact same understanding with respect to Glass-Steagall.  Classic case of academic thought doesn't exactly work in real life.  Sub-Prime mortgages were immaterial. They were a spec on an ant's butt.  The securitzation and leverage was an issue. Also consider that derivatives...where you "derive" or create some value based on the performance of another instrument.  The farther away, or more levels that derive value from the original instrument is leverage. In this case, the original instrument is the home. Coupled with the banks looking for yield in creating new products, and fannie....the ratings agencies that rubber stamped everything as gold was complicit.

If you keep pulling the onion, you will find that the whole system was on crack
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: Bison66 on October 29, 2010, 11:20:49 AM
So can we put to pasture (or send to the glue factory) the repeated scapegoating of "minorities", unable to pay their mortgages, who've been blamed for being the initial cause of the problems?

O0
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: Black Panther40 on October 29, 2010, 12:04:10 PM
Correct-o-Mundo!!! The pie was already baked.  

I have fought in my own little world to dispel that myth.  As banks tried to create different products, and priced them according to risk (credit), I believe people of color were disparately impacted.  Sub-Prime mortgages were not created to lure people of color specifically, but lack of financial education prior to the mortgage process placed them in that higher risk category.  

I have been clear that a lot of the "A" paper was garbage. Folks just limit it to Alt-A, and No doc loans. People don't realize that if you have a 700 score . . .everything was No Doc, and you didn't ask for it, or have to pay a premium for it. We knew what the computer was going to kick back.  So . . .that is how a police offer with a 50k salary can go get a 600k house with no money down.  I don't have to go too far to explain those numbers don't work . . . and that ain't subprime. These deals are all over the place.  

Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: Bison66 on October 29, 2010, 12:15:28 PM
Thanks, Panther!

Meanwhile....(what is it 3 times?)

M&G and highlander, please recommend an article which you believe is fair and balanced.

I'll wait right here.

STILL WAITING!

O0
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: iceman4221 on November 16, 2010, 07:41:50 PM
Thanks, Panther!

Meanwhile....(what is it 3 times?)

M&G and highlander, please recommend an article which you believe is fair and balanced.

I'll wait right here.

STILL WAITING!

O0

Bison66 don't whole your breath my brother, thats not going to happen...  This is a board filled with defenders of rhetorical ethics without a serious look at facts...  Facts and Truths are often ignored and if you prove your point, then the opponents will just ignore your requests or posts, as an affront to saying you were right on this one and your argument is more logically and evidence basis than their opinions - we have more politicians on this board than you can find lobbyist in Washington DC...
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: soflorattler on November 16, 2010, 08:04:18 PM
Thanks, Panther!

Meanwhile....(what is it 3 times?)

M&G and highlander, please recommend an article which you believe is fair and balanced.

I'll wait right here.

STILL WAITING!

O0

Bison66 don't whole your breath my brother, thats not going to happen...  This is a board filled with defenders of rhetorical ethics without a serious look at facts...  Facts and Truths are often ignored and if you prove your point, then the opponents will just ignore your requests or posts, as an affront to saying you were right on this one and your argument is more logically and evidence basis than their opinions - we have more politicians on this board than you can find lobbyist in Washington DC...


^^^^^^^^^^What he said...
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: Bison66 on November 16, 2010, 09:49:22 PM
Iceman,

I know, I know.

These guys can't even acknowledge, let alone address, noncontroversial historical facts which conflict with the one-sided (not to mention lopsided) view they have.

But to more important matters, Iceman:
Are you familiar with YURUGU?

I am asking due to your use of the term "rhetorical ethic."

O0
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: soflorattler on November 17, 2010, 07:29:33 AM



If you keep pulling the onion, you will find that the whole system was on crack

Exactly. Phil Gramm and Jim Leach, along with the republican majority in '99 didn't make things any better by repealing Glass-Steagall.
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: thirdeye on November 17, 2010, 09:46:43 AM
The meltdown was coming and predicted.  The subprime scandal was a way for real estate investors to capitalize before the housing market crashed, and big banks to use the effect to take control over the financial market.  With technology and globalization (outsourcing) killing the American labor pool, they knew that by this time the unemployment rate was going to drastically effect the national economy.  A computer can do the work, but when it replaces humans in the labor market, it cannot replace them in the consumer market...so naturally the relationship adversely effects the economy.  So, at the peak it encouraged people to buy houses that they couldn't afford, on interest only loans that would come to call.  And then the gubment, rerouted tax dollars and instituted money that we didnt have to fund the big banks and force the little banks to either go under or allow the big banks to buy them out.  If you look at the major financial institutions, there are only about 3 that through the use of other names own most of the financial institutions now.  People  call it "conspiracy" but nothing happens by chance...This whole thing and it's outcome was foreseen.
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: uchighlander on November 17, 2010, 10:00:55 AM
Thanks, Panther!

Meanwhile....(what is it 3 times?)

M&G and highlander, please recommend an article which you believe is fair and balanced.

I'll wait right here.

STILL WAITING!

O0
Re-read the Star Parker article. GO VIKINGS!!!
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: Bison66 on November 17, 2010, 12:17:57 PM
I've actually read it twice already to make sure I didn't miss anything, perhaps even an allusion to other factors.

I asked you guys about something more "fair and balanced."  And you now refer me to the Parker article.

I can only refer you to my comments in that thread:

"Any discussion of what caused the crisis which DOES NOT EVEN MENTION the collaterization of mortgages and derivatives is COMPLETELY LAUGHABLE and reveals an ideological bias incapable of seeing the woods OR the trees."

So.try again.

Still waiting.
O0
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: uchighlander on November 17, 2010, 02:38:35 PM
I've actually read it twice already to make sure I didn't miss anything, perhaps even an allusion to other factors.

I asked you guys about something more "fair and balanced."  And you now refer me to the Parker article.

I can only refer you to my comments in that thread:

"Any discussion of what caused the crisis which DOES NOT EVEN MENTION the collaterization of mortgages and derivatives is COMPLETELY LAUGHABLE and reveals an ideological bias incapable of seeing the woods OR the trees."

So.try again.

Still waiting.
O0
I think it's fair and balanced.....you don't.....so we disagree on something....what's new? GO VIKINGS!!!
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: Bison66 on November 18, 2010, 01:04:17 AM
See, highlander, this is the kind of thing I discussed in my response to M&G in another thread.

You posed a legit question about why Liberals never mention Fannie and Freddie.  I didn't deny they had a role.  I said it was minor in comparison.

THAT's "fair and balanced (f&b)."

But when you tell me that the Parker article is "f&b" and she mentions NOTHING about the other contributing factors to the meltdown, then I know you are BSing.............or you are just being blindly ideological like she is.

Perhaps your original question was just an attempt at diversion from the essential truths revealed in the movie we were discussing:   Inside Job.

Either way, it's sad.
O0
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: soflorattler on November 18, 2010, 05:47:47 AM

You posed a legit question about why Liberals never mention Fannie and Freddie.  I didn't deny they had a role.  I said it was minor in comparison.

THAT's "fair and balanced (f&b)."
[/size]

Simply put- Fannie and Freddie held the paper, while the boys on Wall Street and Bankers manipulated it. To try and hold Fannie and Freddie solely to blame is ignorant at best...
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: uchighlander on November 18, 2010, 10:00:51 AM
See, highlander, this is the kind of thing I discussed in my response to M&G in another thread.

You posed a legit question about why Liberals never mention Fannie and Freddie.  I didn't deny they had a role.  I said it was minor in comparison.

THAT's "fair and balanced (f&b)."

But when you tell me that the Parker article is "f&b" and she mentions NOTHING about the other contributing factors to the meltdown, then I know you are BSing.............or you are just being blindly ideological like she is.

Perhaps your original question was just an attempt at diversion from the essential truths revealed in the movie we were discussing:   Inside Job.

Either way, it's sad.
O0

No....what you need to do is go back and read my original couple of posts on the Star Parker article.. Focus on what I said......if standard lending practices had been kept in place none of this would have happened. Are you going to deny that? As soon as the government got involved standard lending practices went out the window leaving everything open to abuse. GO VIKINGS!!!
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: Bison66 on November 19, 2010, 12:20:09 AM
Your first post stated that Parker had it right.  You did make a point about F&F's policies starting the whole thing.  So far, so good.

However, in this thread you offered Parker's article in response to my request to you and M&G for a "fair and balanced" article.  It clearly is NOT that, which even you would have to admit in all honesty, because the article IGNORES all other factors.  If I am wrong, please point me to it in the Parker article.  [Not to mention that Parker relies almost exclusively on ONE source, a former Fannie guy.]

Regarding your specific question, I have already acknowledged that F&F played a role.  That they were the gateway drugs that began the" addiction to derivatives" is, at best, debatable.  (Have you taken time to read up on collateralized obligations?)

Since  you maintain that the Parker article, which MENTIONS NO OTHER FACTORS, is "f&b" then it is not that we disagree, it is that you are maintaining the completely untenable position that a "F&B" article on this complicated matter is one in which there was only one causal and contributing factor.

O0
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: Bison66 on November 19, 2010, 08:57:08 PM
From this excerpt, it appears that this book is approaching the subject in a fair and balanced manner:

http://parkerspitzer.blogs.cnn.com/2010/11/19/devils-are-here-economic-disaster-unavoidable/

O0
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: iceman4221 on November 28, 2010, 12:34:04 PM
Iceman,

I know, I know.

These guys can't even acknowledge, let alone address, noncontroversial historical facts which conflict with the one-sided (not to mention lopsided) view they have.

But to more important matters, Iceman:
Are you familiar with YURUGU?

I am asking due to your use of the term "rhetorical ethic."

O0

But of course, its one of the most intriguing books that I have ever read and continue to read and re-read on an ongoing basis Bison66...   

It's quite enlightening to see the mask removed and the inner workings revealed so as not to be hoodwinked by the powers that be...   
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: iceman4221 on November 28, 2010, 12:40:12 PM
I've actually read it twice already to make sure I didn't miss anything, perhaps even an allusion to other factors.

I asked you guys about something more "fair and balanced."  And you now refer me to the Parker article.

I can only refer you to my comments in that thread:

"Any discussion of what caused the crisis which DOES NOT EVEN MENTION the collaterization of mortgages and derivatives is COMPLETELY LAUGHABLE and reveals an ideological bias incapable of seeing the woods OR the trees."

So.try again.

Still waiting.
O0

When the wind comes out of the sails of the commercial mortgage sector, in addition to the problems created by collaterization of mortgages and derivatives - which has not reached full maturity as of yet - we will be dealing with another blow to our financial sector, due to these shenanigans... 
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: Bison66 on November 28, 2010, 12:58:31 PM
Good info, Iceman!

It's like a desk reference.  Contains many keys to the puzzle.
O0
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: Bison66 on December 18, 2010, 10:29:30 PM
Quote
It’s not as if the story of the crisis is particularly obscure. First, there was a widely spread housing bubble, not just in the United States, but in Ireland, Spain, and other countries as well. This bubble was inflated by irresponsible lending, made possible both by bank deregulation and the failure to extend regulation to “shadow banks,” which weren’t covered by traditional regulation but nonetheless engaged in banking activities and created bank-type risks.

Then the bubble burst, with hugely disruptive consequences. It turned out that Wall Street had created a web of interconnection nobody understood, so that the failure of Lehman Brothers, a medium-size investment bank, could threaten to take down the whole world financial system.

It’s a straightforward story, but a story that the Republican members of the commission don’t want told. Literally.

Last week, reports Shahien Nasiripour of The Huffington Post, all four Republicans on the commission voted to exclude the following terms from the report: “deregulation,” “shadow banking,” “interconnection,” and, yes, “Wall Street.”

When Democratic members refused to go along with this insistence that the story of Hamlet be told without the prince, the Republicans went ahead and issued their own report, which did, indeed, avoid using any of the banned terms.

That report is all of nine pages long, with few facts and hardly any numbers. Beyond that, it tells a story that has been widely and repeatedly debunked — without responding at all to the debunkers.

In the world according to the G.O.P. commissioners, it’s all the fault of government do-gooders, who used various levers — especially Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the government-sponsored loan-guarantee agencies — to promote loans to low-income borrowers. Wall Street — I mean, the private sector — erred only to the extent that it got suckered into going along with this government-created bubble.

It’s hard to overstate how wrongheaded all of this is. For one thing, as I’ve already noted, the housing bubble was international — and Fannie and Freddie weren’t guaranteeing mortgages in Latvia. Nor were they guaranteeing loans in commercial real estate, which also experienced a huge bubble.

Beyond that, the timing shows that private players weren’t suckered into a government-created bubble. It was the other way around. During the peak years of housing inflation, Fannie and Freddie were pushed to the sidelines; they only got into dubious lending late in the game, as they tried to regain market share.

The title of the  column is:  WALL STREET WHITEWASH
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/17/opinion/17krugman.html?_r=1&emc=eta1

O0
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: iceman4221 on December 18, 2010, 11:39:45 PM
Intriguing article, very on point!!!
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: iceman4221 on December 18, 2010, 11:41:34 PM
Thanks, Panther!

Meanwhile....(what is it 3 times?)

M&G and highlander, please recommend an article which you believe is fair and balanced.

I'll wait right here.

STILL WAITING!

O0

Bison66 don't whole your breath my brother, thats not going to happen...  This is a board filled with defenders of rhetorical ethics without a serious look at facts...  Facts and Truths are often ignored and if you prove your point, then the opponents will just ignore your requests or posts, as an affront to saying you were right on this one and your argument is more logically and evidence basis than their opinions - we have more politicians on this board than you can find lobbyist in Washington DC...


^^^^^^^^^^What he said...

Thx Soflorattler!!!  Truth, trumps Bull Chiting, Hands Down!!!
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: Black Panther40 on December 19, 2010, 12:40:29 PM
...
Beyond that, the timing shows that private players weren’t suckered into a government-created bubble. It was the other way around. During the peak years of housing inflation, Fannie and Freddie were pushed to the sidelines; they only got into dubious lending late in the game, as they tried to regain market share....[/b][/size]

Bam!!
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: Bison66 on December 20, 2010, 11:12:16 AM
Bam!!  Bam!! Bam!!

O0
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: uchighlander on December 20, 2010, 11:37:17 AM
John Stossel had a program on over the weekend called the 10 Worst Government Promises and one of them delt with the government getting into the home loan business. To a man....every single one of the experts that were interviewed said Government intervention into the real estate business was the cause of the sub prime melt down. The minute the government said that everyone should own a house put us on the road to disaster. As I have said before....conventional loan mentality and practices would have kept every transaction on the straight and narrow....you would have to qualify for a loan....not just be needy. GO VIKINGS!!!
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: Maroon and Gray on December 20, 2010, 11:52:56 AM
Bam!!  Bam!! Bam!!

O0

is that a John Witherspoon impersonation?
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: Bison66 on December 20, 2010, 12:15:52 PM
Missed the Stossel program.  What network was it on?  Name of program?

Perhaps I can see it on the web.

highlander,
All of what you say COULD be true.  I don't know, but...

How would that have toppled AIG, Lehman Brothers?

It was the collateralization of obligations (the slicing and dicing of mortagages), the derivatives, the voluntary and greedy abandonment of lending standards, fake-a-- insurance (not designed to cover systemic risk) and biz plans based on the ridiculous belief that housing values would never go down, etc that magnified what would have been a relatively small impact of sub-prime mortgage defaults.

It seems to me that without these other factors a default on many sub-prime mortgages would have been a mere ripple in the economy; not the Tsunami that the other factors created.

Do you know what the default rate on sub-prime mortgages was?
Or what percentage they were of ALL mortgages?

I remember reading that info some time ago and both %s were RELATIVELY small, altho I don't recall the exact numbers.

O0
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: Bison66 on December 20, 2010, 12:20:07 PM
Bam!!  Bam!! Bam!!

O0

is that a John Witherspoon impersonation?

You talkin' 'bout 63 Cent?!?!

Funny you should ask that because our oldest son, a music producer, has actually produced Witherspoon's recordings. 

He's a funny dude!!

I wasn't thinking about him; I was reiterating Black Panther's cryptic comment.
O0
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: uchighlander on December 20, 2010, 01:48:43 PM
Missed the Stossel program.  What network was it on?  Name of program?

Perhaps I can see it on the web.

highlander,
All of what you say COULD be true.  I don't know, but...

How would that have toppled AIG, Lehman Brothers?

It was the collateralization of obligations (the slicing and dicing of mortagages), the derivatives, the voluntary and greedy abandonment of lending standards, fake-a-- insurance (not designed to cover systemic risk) and biz plans based on the ridiculous belief that housing values would never go down, etc that magnified what would have been a relatively small impact of sub-prime mortgage defaults.

It seems to me that without these other factors a default on many sub-prime mortgages would have been a mere ripple in the economy; not the Tsunami that the other factors created.

Do you know what the default rate on sub-prime mortgages was?
Or what percentage they were of ALL mortgages?

I remember reading that info some time ago and both %s were RELATIVELY small, altho I don't recall the exact numbers.

O0
That's the point you are MISSING. Maybe on purpose. The slicing and dicing NEVER would have happened if standard lending practices had prevailed. They were changed when the government got involved and required people who were not qualified for home loans to be given the loans using shaky lending practices. The program was on FOX. GO VIKINGS!!!
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: soflorattler on December 20, 2010, 03:59:42 PM
Quote
...shaky people be given the loans using shaky lending practices.

Lack of oversight by the repeal of Glass-Steagall, thanks to pressure by Gramm, LED to those banks and investment houses manipulating the system, so that they could make those so-called shaky loans. Those at the top MADE their money, while the rest of us at the bottom were left holding the bag with no bottom. So if you want to say that government was the cause of the economic collapse, then Phil Gramm is in government, so there you go...
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: Wildman78 on December 20, 2010, 04:14:25 PM
Missed the Stossel program.  What network was it on?  Name of program?

Perhaps I can see it on the web.

highlander,
All of what you say COULD be true.  I don't know, but...

How would that have toppled AIG, Lehman Brothers?

It was the collateralization of obligations (the slicing and dicing of mortagages), the derivatives, the voluntary and greedy abandonment of lending standards, fake-a-- insurance (not designed to cover systemic risk) and biz plans based on the ridiculous belief that housing values would never go down, etc that magnified what would have been a relatively small impact of sub-prime mortgage defaults.

It seems to me that without these other factors a default on many sub-prime mortgages would have been a mere ripple in the economy; not the Tsunami that the other factors created.

Do you know what the default rate on sub-prime mortgages was?
Or what percentage they were of ALL mortgages?

I remember reading that info some time ago and both %s were RELATIVELY small, altho I don't recall the exact numbers.

O0
That's the point you are MISSING. Maybe on purpose. The slicing and dicing NEVER would have happened if standard lending practices had prevailed. The were changed when the government got involved and required people who were not qualified for home loans to be given the loans using shaky lending practices. The program was on FOX. GO VIKINGS!!!

In law, there is cause in fact and proximate cause.  I got up late for work. On my way there, I got hit by a guy that ran a stop sign.  You could argue that I got hit because I got up late for work. That would be a cause in fact. However, the proximate cause of the accident was the guy running the stop sign.

Phrase differently, the failure to adhere to standard lending did not necessarily cause all that crazy stuff with the deriviatives. It just made it possible for it to happen. Those lax lending practices did not force anyone to create and trade dervivatives.  It merely provided them with the opportunity.

At least that's my take. I'm open to intelligent feedback.  
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: Bison66 on December 20, 2010, 10:45:18 PM
Missed the Stossel program.  What network was it on?  Name of program?

Perhaps I can see it on the web.

highlander,
All of what you say COULD be true.  I don't know, but...

How would that have toppled AIG, Lehman Brothers?

It was the collateralization of obligations (the slicing and dicing of mortagages), the derivatives, the voluntary and greedy abandonment of lending standards, fake-a-- insurance (not designed to cover systemic risk) and biz plans based on the ridiculous belief that housing values would never go down, etc that magnified what would have been a relatively small impact of sub-prime mortgage defaults.

It seems to me that without these other factors a default on many sub-prime mortgages would have been a mere ripple in the economy; not the Tsunami that the other factors created.

Do you know what the default rate on sub-prime mortgages was?
Or what percentage they were of ALL mortgages?

I remember reading that info some time ago and both %s were RELATIVELY small, altho I don't recall the exact numbers.

O0
That's the point you are MISSING. Maybe on purpose. The slicing and dicing NEVER would have happened if standard lending practices had prevailed. The were changed when the government got involved and required people who were not qualified for home loans to be given the loans using shaky lending practices. The program was on FOX. GO VIKINGS!!!

Firstly...

"Missed the Stossel program.  What network was it on?  Name of program?

Perhaps I can see it on the web."

highlander,

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

O0
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: uchighlander on December 21, 2010, 09:52:18 AM
Quote
...shaky people be given the loans using shaky lending practices.

Lack of oversight by the repeal of Glass-Steagall, thanks to pressure by Gramm, LED to those banks and investment houses manipulating the system, so that they could make those so-called shaky loans. Those at the top MADE their money, while the rest of us at the bottom were left holding the bag with no bottom. So if you want to say that government was the cause of the economic collapse, then Phil Gramm is in government, so there you go...
I'll say it again for those of you who are not reading what I'm saying. Government intervention? What is that? Glass-Steagall and any other program or legislation that creates a situation were common sense is ignored. None of these programs or legislation would ever have been put in place if the government would have stayed out of the real estate business.There would have been NO shaky loans and NO one would have been left holding the bag. GO VIKINGS!!!
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: uchighlander on December 21, 2010, 09:58:29 AM
Wildman....your accident....nothing serious I hope. Can't have anything happening to my sparing partners!! GO VIKINGS!!!
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: soflorattler on December 22, 2010, 06:53:39 AM
Quote
...shaky people be given the loans using shaky lending practices.

Lack of oversight by the repeal of Glass-Steagall, thanks to pressure by Gramm, LED to those banks and investment houses manipulating the system, so that they could make those so-called shaky loans. Those at the top MADE their money, while the rest of us at the bottom were left holding the bag with no bottom. So if you want to say that government was the cause of the economic collapse, then Phil Gramm is in government, so there you go...

I'll say it again for those of you who are not reading what I'm saying. Government intervention? What is that? Glass-Steagall and any other program or legislation that creates a situation were common sense is ignored. None of these programs or legislation would ever have been put in place if the government would have stayed out of the real estate business.There would have been NO shaky loans and NO one would have been left holding the bag. GO VIKINGS!!!

It is BECAUSE of those in business and industry, the people you worship, who are led by greed and a lust for domination over others is exactly why government intervention is needed. You're living in a fool's paradise if you think for one minute, that these power barons will "do the right thing" where the human condition is concerned. Forget about it. It's not going to happen.

In principle, here's for instance, where "government intervention" was needed because of the greed and ruthlessness of the people you worship:

Quote
In the years between 1889 and 1920 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Employers_Liability_Act), railroad use in the U.S. expanded six-fold. With this expansion, the dangers to the railroad worker increased.

President Benjamin Harrison addressed these dangers in a speech to the United States Congress in 1889, in which he compared the plight of the railroad worker to those of a soldier at war:

    It is a reproach to our civilization that any class of American workmen, should in the pursuit of a necessary and useful vocation, be subjected to a peril of life and limb as great as that of a soldier in time of war.[2]

In discussing the need for legislation to address the railroad worker's exposure to harm, U.S. Representative Henry D. Flood, a strong advocate for the passage of the FELA, referred to alarming statistics about the injuries and deaths associated with work on the railroad. 40 Congressional Record (1906).

To curb these dangers, Congress relied upon the experience of certain states which had already passed legislation similar to the FELA to support the proposition that the FELA would lead to increased safety on the railroad. Flood, in urging the U.S. House of Representatives to "follow the lead of those enlightened and progressive states." 490 Cong. Rec. 4607 (1906).

It's because of the Rockerfellers and Carnegies of the world, and those who follow their blueprint, that we find this country, and others around the world in the shape it's in.

You, for some ungodly reason, think that these people will police themselves, and conduct business in a manner that will be beneficial to all. We are LIVING PROOF, top to bottom, that nothing could be farther from the truth. Yet, YOU advocate that we move deeper into the abyss of deregulation. You need serious help...seriously....
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: uchighlander on December 22, 2010, 10:21:10 AM
Quote
...shaky people be given the loans using shaky lending practices.

Lack of oversight by the repeal of Glass-Steagall, thanks to pressure by Gramm, LED to those banks and investment houses manipulating the system, so that they could make those so-called shaky loans. Those at the top MADE their money, while the rest of us at the bottom were left holding the bag with no bottom. So if you want to say that government was the cause of the economic collapse, then Phil Gramm is in government, so there you go...

I'll say it again for those of you who are not reading what I'm saying. Government intervention? What is that? Glass-Steagall and any other program or legislation that creates a situation were common sense is ignored. None of these programs or legislation would ever have been put in place if the government would have stayed out of the real estate business.There would have been NO shaky loans and NO one would have been left holding the bag. GO VIKINGS!!!

It is BECAUSE of those in business and industry, the people you worship, who are led by greed and a lust for domination over others is exactly why government intervention is needed. You're living in a fool's paradise if you think for one minute, that these power barons will "do the right thing" where the human condition is concerned. Forget about it. It's not going to happen.

In principle, here's for instance, where "government intervention" was needed because of the greed and ruthlessness of the people you worship:

Quote
In the years between 1889 and 1920 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Employers_Liability_Act), railroad use in the U.S. expanded six-fold. With this expansion, the dangers to the railroad worker increased.

President Benjamin Harrison addressed these dangers in a speech to the United States Congress in 1889, in which he compared the plight of the railroad worker to those of a soldier at war:

    It is a reproach to our civilization that any class of American workmen, should in the pursuit of a necessary and useful vocation, be subjected to a peril of life and limb as great as that of a soldier in time of war.[2]

In discussing the need for legislation to address the railroad worker's exposure to harm, U.S. Representative Henry D. Flood, a strong advocate for the passage of the FELA, referred to alarming statistics about the injuries and deaths associated with work on the railroad. 40 Congressional Record (1906).

To curb these dangers, Congress relied upon the experience of certain states which had already passed legislation similar to the FELA to support the proposition that the FELA would lead to increased safety on the railroad. Flood, in urging the U.S. House of Representatives to "follow the lead of those enlightened and progressive states." 490 Cong. Rec. 4607 (1906).

It's because of the Rockerfellers and Carnegies of the world, and those who follow their blueprint, that we find this country, and others around the world in the shape it's in.

You, for some ungodly reason, think that these people will police themselves, and conduct business in a manner that will be beneficial to all. We are LIVING PROOF, top to bottom, that nothing could be farther from the truth. Yet, YOU advocate that we move deeper into the abyss of deregulation. You need serious help...seriously....
Using your twisted logic you can convince yourself of just about anything can't you. What in the heck do homeloans have anything to do with what you posted other than it's another way of you taking a shot at rich people. Who brainwashed you anyway? GO VIKINGS!!!
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: soflorattler on December 22, 2010, 10:27:23 AM
Quote
...shaky people be given the loans using shaky lending practices.

Lack of oversight by the repeal of Glass-Steagall, thanks to pressure by Gramm, LED to those banks and investment houses manipulating the system, so that they could make those so-called shaky loans. Those at the top MADE their money, while the rest of us at the bottom were left holding the bag with no bottom. So if you want to say that government was the cause of the economic collapse, then Phil Gramm is in government, so there you go...

I'll say it again for those of you who are not reading what I'm saying. Government intervention? What is that? Glass-Steagall and any other program or legislation that creates a situation were common sense is ignored. None of these programs or legislation would ever have been put in place if the government would have stayed out of the real estate business.There would have been NO shaky loans and NO one would have been left holding the bag. GO VIKINGS!!!

It is BECAUSE of those in business and industry, the people you worship, who are led by greed and a lust for domination over others is exactly why government intervention is needed. You're living in a fool's paradise if you think for one minute, that these power barons will "do the right thing" where the human condition is concerned. Forget about it. It's not going to happen.

In principle, here's for instance, where "government intervention" was needed because of the greed and ruthlessness of the people you worship:

Quote
In the years between 1889 and 1920 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Employers_Liability_Act), railroad use in the U.S. expanded six-fold. With this expansion, the dangers to the railroad worker increased.

President Benjamin Harrison addressed these dangers in a speech to the United States Congress in 1889, in which he compared the plight of the railroad worker to those of a soldier at war:

    It is a reproach to our civilization that any class of American workmen, should in the pursuit of a necessary and useful vocation, be subjected to a peril of life and limb as great as that of a soldier in time of war.[2]

In discussing the need for legislation to address the railroad worker's exposure to harm, U.S. Representative Henry D. Flood, a strong advocate for the passage of the FELA, referred to alarming statistics about the injuries and deaths associated with work on the railroad. 40 Congressional Record (1906).

To curb these dangers, Congress relied upon the experience of certain states which had already passed legislation similar to the FELA to support the proposition that the FELA would lead to increased safety on the railroad. Flood, in urging the U.S. House of Representatives to "follow the lead of those enlightened and progressive states." 490 Cong. Rec. 4607 (1906).

It's because of the Rockerfellers and Carnegies of the world, and those who follow their blueprint, that we find this country, and others around the world in the shape it's in.

You, for some ungodly reason, think that these people will police themselves, and conduct business in a manner that will be beneficial to all. We are LIVING PROOF, top to bottom, that nothing could be farther from the truth. Yet, YOU advocate that we move deeper into the abyss of deregulation. You need serious help...seriously....
Using your twisted logic you can convince yourself of just about anything can't you. What in the heck do homeloans have anything to do with what you posted other than it's another way of you taking a shot at rich people. Who brainwashed you anyway? GO VIKINGS!!!

 ::)

RIF...

Quote
In principle, here's for instance...
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: Bison66 on December 22, 2010, 11:08:40 AM
highlander,

Are you saying that Glass-Steagall was a bad idea?  I am not clear on your position.

O0
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: uchighlander on December 22, 2010, 01:25:54 PM
highlander,

Are you saying that Glass-Steagall was a bad idea?  I am not clear on your position.

O0
No.....I threw it in just because someone else did and it has nothing to do with home loans....just someone mucking up an discussion with BS......the point being it has nothing to do with the discussion at hand so why bring it up? GO VIKINGS!!!
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: soflorattler on December 22, 2010, 01:35:01 PM
highlander,

Are you saying that Glass-Steagall was a bad idea?  I am not clear on your position.

O0
No.....I threw it in just because someone else did and it has nothing to do with home loans....just someone mucking up an discussion with BS......the point being it has nothing to do with the discussion at hand so why bring it up? GO VIKINGS!!!

Oversight, or moreover, lack thereof IS exactly the point as to how we got into this mess! You and those who think like you never want to get down to causes and conditons. Your first response wnen confronted with issues like this is that it's the fault of those on the backend as opposed what transpired on the frontend that was the catalyst that got it all started.
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: uchighlander on December 22, 2010, 02:46:07 PM
highlander,

Are you saying that Glass-Steagall was a bad idea?  I am not clear on your position.

O0
No.....I threw it in just because someone else did and it has nothing to do with home loans....just someone mucking up an discussion with BS......the point being it has nothing to do with the discussion at hand so why bring it up? GO VIKINGS!!!

Oversight, or moreover, lack thereof IS exactly the point as to how we got into this mess! You and those who think like you never want to get down to causes and conditons. Your first response wnen confronted with issues like this is that it's the fault of those on the backend as opposed what transpired on the frontend that was the catalyst that got it all started.
Here again....we go back to my initial point.....NO OVERSIGHT IS NEEDED OR WAS NEEDED until the government got involved and created a group of needy people who were guaranteed loans they couldn't qualify for until someone took advantage of the situation and came up with creative loan package instead of keeping to conventional loan practices. Dang!!! GO VIKINGS!!!
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: soflorattler on December 22, 2010, 04:20:34 PM
 ::) Bullsiht! The government "created" nothing.
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: uchighlander on December 22, 2010, 06:24:45 PM
::) Bullsiht! The government "created" nothing.
OMG.....you have been brainwashed haven't you.....that was not a question....that was a statement. GO VIKINGS!!!
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: Wildman78 on December 22, 2010, 07:28:50 PM
If the packgaging and reselling of all those subprime mortgages were  independent decisions, and if those decisions caused the economic crisis, how can you say that the subprime mortgages are the cause of the economic crisis.

No one force anybody to packgage bad  mortgages and resell them as low risk investments.

That's akin to saying you shouldn't blame the rapist for raping the girl who passed out at the party with her dress above her waist.  
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: Bison66 on December 22, 2010, 10:05:07 PM
highlander,

Are you saying that Glass-Steagall was a bad idea?  I am not clear on your position.

O0
No.....I threw it in just because someone else did and it has nothing to do with home loans....just someone mucking up an discussion with BS......the point being it has nothing to do with the discussion at hand so why bring it up? GO VIKINGS!!!

Oversight, or moreover, lack thereof IS exactly the point as to how we got into this mess! You and those who think like you never want to get down to causes and conditons. Your first response wnen confronted with issues like this is that it's the fault of those on the backend as opposed what transpired on the frontend that was the catalyst that got it all started.
Here again....we go back to my initial point.....NO OVERSIGHT IS NEEDED OR WAS NEEDED until the government got involved and created a group of needy people who were guaranteed loans they couldn't qualify for until someone took advantage of the situation and came up with creative loan package instead of keeping to conventional loan practices. Dang!!! GO VIKINGS!!!

highlander,
Glass-Steagall (G-S) was passed after the depression to protect people's savings in "banks" whose owners might be tempted to speculate as they had leading up to the depression.  The leverage they and others employed at that time magnified the impact of the downturn. 

G-S restricted bank's speculation.  Had it not been repealed with Repub anti-regulation pressure and Clinton's agreement, the impact of any sub-prime default problems would have been limited.  And the FDIC would not have been required to back up the banks; only speculative investment houses would have been handling the CDOs in the first place.

That is why it is germane to the discussion.  The repeal of reasonable and well-conceived govt regulation, which had kept speculation in areas where it was appropriate, allowed bubble-headed Wall Streeters to run amok........and they did.

O0
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: soflorattler on December 23, 2010, 04:54:18 AM
highlander,

Are you saying that Glass-Steagall was a bad idea?  I am not clear on your position.

O0
No.....I threw it in just because someone else did and it has nothing to do with home loans....just someone mucking up an discussion with BS......the point being it has nothing to do with the discussion at hand so why bring it up? GO VIKINGS!!!

Oversight, or moreover, lack thereof IS exactly the point as to how we got into this mess! You and those who think like you never want to get down to causes and conditons. Your first response wnen confronted with issues like this is that it's the fault of those on the backend as opposed what transpired on the frontend that was the catalyst that got it all started.
Here again....we go back to my initial point.....NO OVERSIGHT IS NEEDED OR WAS NEEDED until the government got involved and created a group of needy people who were guaranteed loans they couldn't qualify for until someone took advantage of the situation and came up with creative loan package instead of keeping to conventional loan practices. Dang!!! GO VIKINGS!!!

highlander,
Glass-Steagall (G-S) was passed after the depression to protect people's savings in "banks" whose owners might be tempted to speculate as they had leading up to the depression.  The leverage they and others employed at that time magnified the impact of the downturn. 

G-S restricted bank's speculation.  Had it not been repealed with Repub anti-regulation pressure and Clinton's agreement, the impact of any sub-prime default problems would have been limited.  And the FDIC would not have been required to back up the banks; only speculative investment houses would have been handling the CDOs in the first place.

That is why it is germane to the discussion.  The repeal of reasonable and well-conceived govt regulation, which had kept speculation in areas where it was appropriate, allowed bubble-headed Wall Streeters to run amok........and they did.

O0

Thank you, B66. If he's as bright as he'd like us to think that he is, he should have been able to connect the dots.

While he's mired in the mess of conservative talking points, others here see, and are illustrating the reality. Yet, he has the nerve to call someone else "brainwashed".

Uchi... On the "brainwashed" quip- I was told long ago that when you're pointing a finger at someone, it might be good to take a look at the other 3 pointing back at you...

Your welcome... ;)
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: Black Panther40 on December 23, 2010, 02:31:56 PM
Here again....we go back to my initial point.....NO OVERSIGHT IS NEEDED OR WAS NEEDED until the government got involved and created a group of needy people who were guaranteed loans they couldn't qualify for until someone took advantage of the situation and came up with creative loan package instead of keeping to conventional loan practices. Dang!!! GO VIKINGS!!!

I have to call shenanigans here.  As was pointed out, When people point to government intervention, and Glass Steagall, they think the introduced restrictions. Just the opposite. Their intervention actually let the Fox in the henhouse.

Glass-Steagall (G-S) was passed after the depression to protect people's savings in "banks" whose owners might be tempted to speculate as they had leading up to the depression. The leverage they and others employed at that time magnified the impact of the downturn.  

G-S restricted bank's speculation. Had it not been repealed with Repub anti-regulation pressure and Clinton's agreement, the impact of any sub-prime default problems would have been limited. And the FDIC would not have been required to back up the banks; only speculative investment houses would have been handling the CDOs in the first place.

That is why it is germane to the discussion. The repeal of reasonable and well-conceived govt regulation, which had kept speculation in areas where it was appropriate, allowed bubble-headed Wall Streeters to run amok........and they did.

Bam!!

If the packgaging and reselling of all those subprime mortgages were independent decisions, and if those decisions caused the economic crisis, how can you say that the subprime mortgages are the cause of the economic crisis.

No one force anybody to packgage bad mortgages and resell them as low risk investments.

That's akin to saying you shouldn't blame the rapist for raping the girl who passed out at the party with her dress above her waist.  

Mmmm . . . not so easy. First of all, The subprime mortgage was NOT the cause of the economic crisis. The mortgage itself was a small component of a larger flawed system compounded to make money. Companies packaged "bad loans" to get them off of their books (like Enron and off-balance sheet financing), and go issue more loans . . . because there was a demand for them as Wall Street was looking at higher yields. Wall Street was looking at higher yields as a risk/reward spread . . . as a result of GS repeal that created financial supermarkets.  

However, you are right . . .if these were independent, yet coincidental, then no problem. However, it was more of an accepted practice, if not collusion, with no regard for the impact. That is the problem.  
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: Bison66 on December 23, 2010, 04:14:28 PM
If the packgaging and reselling of all those subprime mortgages were  independent decisions, and if those decisions caused the economic crisis, how can you say that the subprime mortgages are the cause of the economic crisis.

No one force anybody to packgage bad  mortgages and resell them as low risk investments.

That's akin to saying you shouldn't blame the rapist for raping the girl who passed out at the party with her dress above her waist.  

Panther,

Thank you for reminding me that I had not commented on Wildman's excellent point.

Quote
No one force anybody to packgage bad  mortgages and resell them as low risk investments.

This, along with Panther's point about getting loans off the books (so they could care less if the mortgage was ever repaid; therefore encouraging more bad loans - completely unrelated to govt policy), is the 800 pound gorilla staring highlander in the face and that he pretends not to see.

Not to mention Krugman's and other's unchallenged assertion of the timing of Fannie and Freddie' getting "in the game' toward the end.

And, Wildman, your metaphor about the rapist and rape victim was disturbing, priceless (for its insight) and, sadly,quite valid.

O0
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: soflorattler on December 23, 2010, 04:28:42 PM
If the packgaging and reselling of all those subprime mortgages were  independent decisions, and if those decisions caused the economic crisis, how can you say that the subprime mortgages are the cause of the economic crisis.

No one force anybody to packgage bad  mortgages and resell them as low risk investments.

That's akin to saying you shouldn't blame the rapist for raping the girl who passed out at the party with her dress above her waist.  

Panther,

Thank you for reminding me that I had not commented on Wildman's excellent point.

Quote
No one force anybody to packgage bad  mortgages and resell them as low risk investments.

This, along with Panther's point about getting loans off the books (so they could care less if the mortgage was ever repaid; therefore encouraging more bad loans - completely unrelated to govt policy), is the 800 pound gorilla staring highlander in the face and that he pretends not to see.

Not to mention Krugman's and other's unchallenged assertion of the timing of Fannie and Freddie' getting "in the game' toward the end.

And, Wildman, your metaphor about the rapist and rape victim was disturbing, priceless (for its insight) and, sadly,quite valid.

O0

 :nod: :nod: :clap: :clap:
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: Wildman78 on December 23, 2010, 06:11:00 PM
Here again....we go back to my initial point.....NO OVERSIGHT IS NEEDED OR WAS NEEDED until the government got involved and created a group of needy people who were guaranteed loans they couldn't qualify for until someone took advantage of the situation and came up with creative loan package instead of keeping to conventional loan practices. Dang!!! GO VIKINGS!!!

I have to call shenanigans here.  As was pointed out, When people point to government intervention, and Glass Steagall, they think the introduced restrictions. Just the opposite. Their intervention actually let the Fox in the henhouse.

Glass-Steagall (G-S) was passed after the depression to protect people's savings in "banks" whose owners might be tempted to speculate as they had leading up to the depression. The leverage they and others employed at that time magnified the impact of the downturn.  

G-S restricted bank's speculation. Had it not been repealed with Repub anti-regulation pressure and Clinton's agreement, the impact of any sub-prime default problems would have been limited. And the FDIC would not have been required to back up the banks; only speculative investment houses would have been handling the CDOs in the first place.

That is why it is germane to the discussion. The repeal of reasonable and well-conceived govt regulation, which had kept speculation in areas where it was appropriate, allowed bubble-headed Wall Streeters to run amok........and they did.

Bam!!

If the packgaging and reselling of all those subprime mortgages were independent decisions, and if those decisions caused the economic crisis, how can you say that the subprime mortgages are the cause of the economic crisis.

No one force anybody to packgage bad mortgages and resell them as low risk investments.

That's akin to saying you shouldn't blame the rapist for raping the girl who passed out at the party with her dress above her waist.  

Mmmm . . . not so easy. First of all, The subprime mortgage was NOT the cause of the economic crisis. The mortgage itself was a small component of a larger flawed system compounded to make money. Companies packaged "bad loans" to get them off of their books (like Enron and off-balance sheet financing), and go issue more loans . . . because there was a demand for them as Wall Street was looking at higher yields. Wall Street was looking at higher yields as a risk/reward spread . . . as a result of GS repeal that created financial supermarkets.  

However, you are right . . .if these were independent, yet coincidental, then no problem. However, it was more of an accepted practice, if not collusion, with no regard for the impact. That is the problem.  

Thanks Black Panther40. Although I'm not sure I have a firm understanding of the causes of the subprime mortgage crisis, it becomes a little more clearer the more you guys discuss it. 
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: Black Panther40 on December 24, 2010, 01:11:32 PM
Wildman...

Brotha, we don't have all the answers, but at least you asking questions for your own understanding.
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: uchighlander on December 28, 2010, 10:23:37 AM
After reading your comments it has become VERY apparent that you really don't care what caused the economic melt down.....you just want someone to blame.....and for god's sake.....it can't be a liberal program which allowed unqualified people to get loans they had NO hope of ever repaying. GO VIKINGS!!!
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: Wildman78 on December 28, 2010, 11:10:44 AM
After reading your comments it has become VERY apparent that you really don't care what caused the economic melt down.....you just want someone to blame.....and for god's sake.....it can't be a liberal program which allowed unqualified people to get loans they had NO hope of ever repaying. GO VIKINGS!!!

After reading your comments, I guess one could reasonably argue  that it is very apparent that you don't really care what caused the economic melt down, you are just intererested in blaming liberals, the government and poor people.

A free tip: Anytime you accuse the other side of being biased, understand that the same accusation can be made of you.  :shrug: It's a push. It's not an very effective debating tool, just another way of begging the question -- I'm right because I say I'm right kind of thing.
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: Bison66 on December 28, 2010, 01:07:11 PM
highlander,

Don't know who you are addressing, but I will refer you to my earlier post.
From this excerpt, it appears that this book is approaching the subject in a fair and balanced manner:

http://parkerspitzer.blogs.cnn.com/2010/11/19/devils-are-here-economic-disaster-unavoidable/

O0
O0
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: uchighlander on December 28, 2010, 01:26:06 PM
After reading your comments it has become VERY apparent that you really don't care what caused the economic melt down.....you just want someone to blame.....and for god's sake.....it can't be a liberal program which allowed unqualified people to get loans they had NO hope of ever repaying. GO VIKINGS!!!

After reading your comments, I guess one could reasonably argue  that is very apparent that you don't really care what caused the economic melt down, you are just intererested in blaming liberals, the government and poor people.

A free tip: Anytime you accuse the other side of being biased, understand that the same accusation can be made of you.  :shrug: It's a push. It's not an very effective debating tool, just another way of begging the question -- I'm right because I say I'm right kind of thing.
I made a point that you have so far ignored. Your focus has been on what happened after the loans were made. My focus and point was why those loans were ever made in the first place. Explain that to me. GO VIKINGS!!!
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: Wildman78 on December 28, 2010, 04:50:00 PM
After reading your comments it has become VERY apparent that you really don't care what caused the economic melt down.....you just want someone to blame.....and for god's sake.....it can't be a liberal program which allowed unqualified people to get loans they had NO hope of ever repaying. GO VIKINGS!!!

After reading your comments, I guess one could reasonably argue  that is very apparent that you don't really care what caused the economic melt down, you are just intererested in blaming liberals, the government and poor people.

A free tip: Anytime you accuse the other side of being biased, understand that the same accusation can be made of you.  :shrug: It's a push. It's not an very effective debating tool, just another way of begging the question -- I'm right because I say I'm right kind of thing.
I made a point that you have so far ignored. Your focus has been on what happened after the loans were made. My focus and point was why those loans were ever made in the first place. Explain that to me. GO VIKINGS!!!

We  have not ignored your point.  I don't see how you can say that. It just seems to me that that investment vehicles that were created from the bad loans did much more harm to the economy than the bad loans did. You seemed to believe that you can't separate the bad loans from the investment vehicles that were created from them. I don't agree with that view based upon my limited understanding of the issue.

Why were the loans made in the first place? I'm not entirely sure. Why don't you tell us.  :shrug: My guess is that initially, the government wanted more people to own houses. However, based upon some of the articles I've read,  the lending practices became more and more laxed because of competition between mortgage companies and an increasing demand for more mortgage backed securities.

This article appears to be on point:

http://www.stock-market-investors.com/stock-investment-risk/the-subprime-mortgage-crisis-explained.html
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: Bison66 on March 14, 2011, 01:15:24 PM
I finally got to see the movie, "INSIDE JOB."

I know that, given the advance billing of the film and the recent comments of the director at the Oscar ceremony, some Conservatives will not want to view it thinking that it is biased.  However, it contains a wealth of information going back to the S&L scandals decades earlier and, surprisingly, starting off with the financial meltdown in Iceland!!

I highly recommend the film!!!

In that context, here is an update on the state of banking in America that should be scary to everyone - Conservatives, Liberals, Libertarians and others.

Quote
To get an idea of what we’re talking about here, look at the complaint filed by Nevada’s attorney general against Bank of America. The complaint charges the bank with luring families into its loan-modification program — supposedly to help them keep their homes — under false pretenses; with giving false information about the program’s requirements (for example, telling them that they had to default on their mortgages before receiving a modification); with stringing families along with promises of action, then “sending foreclosure notices, scheduling auction dates, and even selling consumers’ homes while they waited for decisions”; and, in general, with exploiting the program to enrich itself at those families’ expense.

The end result, the complaint charges, was that “many Nevada consumers continued to make mortgage payments they could not afford, running through their savings, their retirement funds, or their children’s education funds. Additionally, due to Bank of America’s misleading assurances, consumers deferred short-sales and passed on other attempts to mitigate their losses. And they waited anxiously, month after month, calling Bank of America and submitting their paperwork again and again, not knowing whether or when they would lose their homes.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/14/opinion/14krugman.html?_r=1&emc=eta1
O0
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: Professor on March 14, 2011, 07:01:31 PM
That my friend is true..... I'm a Bank of America employee. The notes are on the system and i couldn't believe it when i saw it
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: Bison66 on March 14, 2011, 09:28:11 PM
Wonderful, Prof!

I am a BoA depositor.  Can you hook a Brother up?!?  ;D

O0

[OW, I'm trying to show my lighter side  ;).....sometimes.]
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: Bison66 on May 17, 2011, 01:14:26 AM
More info about the shenanigans that led to the near collapse of the financial sector....

New York Investigates Banks’ Role in Fiscal Crisis
Quote
Several civil suits have been filed by federal and state regulators since the financial crisis erupted in 2008, some of which have generated settlements and fines, most prominently a $550 million deal between Goldman Sachs and the Securities and Exchange Commission.

But even more questions have been raised in private lawsuits filed against the banks by investors and others who say they were victimized by questionable securitization practices. Some litigants have contended, for example, that the banks dumped loans they knew to be troubled into securities and then misled investors about the quality of those underlying mortgages when selling the investments.

The possibility has also been raised that the banks did not disclose to mortgage insurers the risks in the instruments they were agreeing to insure against default. Another potential area of inquiry — the billions of dollars in credit extended by Wall Street to aggressive mortgage lenders that allowed them to continue making questionable loans far longer than they otherwise could have done........

....The requests for information by Mr. Schneiderman’s office also seem to confirm that the New York attorney general is operating independently of peers from other states who are negotiating a broad settlement with large banks over foreclosure practices.

By opening a new inquiry into bank practices, Mr. Schneiderman has indicated his unwillingness to accept one of the settlement’s terms proposed by financial institutions — that is, a broad agreement by regulators not to conduct additional investigations into the banks’ activities during the mortgage crisis. Mr. Schneiderman has said in recent weeks that signing such a release was unacceptable.
BRAVO for Mr. Schneiderman!!

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/17/business/17bank.html?emc=na
O0
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: Cats4ever on May 17, 2011, 06:31:39 AM
I finally got to see the movie, "INSIDE JOB."

I know that, given the advance billing of the film and the recent comments of the director at the Oscar ceremony, some Conservatives will not want to view it thinking that it is biased.  However, it contains a wealth of information going back to the S&L scandals decades earlier and, surprisingly, starting off with the financial meltdown in Iceland!!

I highly recommend the film!!!

In that context, here is an update on the state of banking in America that should be scary to everyone - Conservatives, Liberals, Libertarians and others.

Quote
To get an idea of what we’re talking about here, look at the complaint filed by Nevada’s attorney general against Bank of America. The complaint charges the bank with luring families into its loan-modification program — supposedly to help them keep their homes — under false pretenses; with giving false information about the program’s requirements (for example, telling them that they had to default on their mortgages before receiving a modification); with stringing families along with promises of action, then “sending foreclosure notices, scheduling auction dates, and even selling consumers’ homes while they waited for decisions”; and, in general, with exploiting the program to enrich itself at those families’ expense.

The end result, the complaint charges, was that “many Nevada consumers continued to make mortgage payments they could not afford, running through their savings, their retirement funds, or their children’s education funds. Additionally, due to Bank of America’s misleading assurances, consumers deferred short-sales and passed on other attempts to mitigate their losses. And they waited anxiously, month after month, calling Bank of America and submitting their paperwork again and again, not knowing whether or when they would lose their homes.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/14/opinion/14krugman.html?_r=1&emc=eta1
O0

Bison66, what family name was on the S&L meltdown? BUSH
What family name was on the current banking situation? you guessed it.
Please people stay out of the Bushes.
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: Bison66 on July 03, 2011, 11:52:28 PM
Quote
The report of the Financial Crisis Inquiry Commission detailed the recklessness of the financial industry and the abject failures of policymakers and regulators that brought our economy to its knees in late 2008. The accuracy and facts of the commission’s investigative report have gone unchallenged since its release in January.

So, how do you revise the historical narrative when the evidence of what led to economic catastrophe is so overwhelming and the events at issue so recent? You and your political allies just do it. And you bet on the old axiom that a lie is halfway around the world before the truth can tie its shoes.

If  you are Rep. Paul Ryan, you ignore the fact that our federal budget deficit has ballooned more than $1 trillion annually since the financial collapse. You disregard the reality that two-thirds of the deficit increase is directly attributable to the economic downturn and bipartisan fiscal measures adopted to bolster the economy. Instead of focusing on the real cause of the deficit, you conflate today’s budgetary disaster with the long-term challenges of Medicare so you can shred the social safety net.

If you are Alan Greenspan, you retreat from your 2008 epiphany in which you acknowledged your “state of shocked disbelief” that “the whole intellectual edifice” of your deregulatory ideology had collapsed. Now, you condemn reform efforts as “the current ‘anything goes’ regulatory ethos” — a phrase that paradoxically recalls your own failed policies at the Federal Reserve. In short, after driving the economy over the cliff, you offer to give driving lessons.

If you are JP Morgan’s chief investment officer, you refute the statement that your chairman and chief executive, Jamie Dimon, made to the FCIC in 2010 blaming the failures of major financial institutions on “the management teams 100 percent and . . . no one else.” You revise your opinion on the causes of the crisis to instead focus blame on government housing policies. The source for this newfound wisdom: shopworn data, produced by a consultant to the corporate-funded American Enterprise Institute, which was analyzed and debunked by the FCIC report.

If you are most congressional Republicans, you turn a blind eye to the sad history of widespread lending abuses that savaged communities across the country and pledge to block the appointment of anyone to head the new Consumer Financial Protection Bureau unless its authority is weakened. You ignore the evidence of pervasive excess that wrecked our financial markets and attempt to cut funding for the regulators charged with curbing it. Across the board, you refuse to acknowledge what went wrong and then try to stop efforts to make it right.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-real-causes-of-the-economic-crisis-theyre-history/2011/06/27/AG2nK4pH_story.html?wpisrc=emailtoafriend
O0
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: Bison66 on July 04, 2011, 10:19:50 AM
By the way, the article ^^ was NOT just some random opinion piece:
Quote
The writer served as chairman of the Financial Crisis Inquiry Commission, which conducted the official inquiry into the nation’s financial and economic crisis.

O0
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: Cholly on July 04, 2011, 05:01:25 PM
uchi doesn't know the difference between people with bad credit being given loans.... AND CREDIT DEFAULT SWAPS... which I might add, were a DIRECT result of the DEREGULATION started by repeal of Glass-Steagel, WHICH I might add, was championed by phill the pill gramm and jim the leach leach... two republiklans, and signed into law by another semi-republican, Bill "DLC" Clinton.

CONSERVATIVES all.  ::)
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: Bison66 on March 20, 2012, 02:14:01 AM
Hey Y'all,

If you missed INSIDE JOB, the movie, check your listings for HBO. 

It's showing here; not sure about North America.  Just watched the end of it and it IS POWERFUL!!!  AGAIN!!!

SHOULD BE REQUIRED VIEWING FOR ALL AMERICANS.

www.insidejobfilm.com

And.....It won 7 top awards for documentaries, too.
O0
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: Bison66 on August 20, 2012, 01:35:05 AM
Here's another important piece of the puzzle:
Quote
...according to a new paper from law professors William Bratton and Adam Levitin, a more sophisticated shell game was just getting going in the skyscrapers that overlooked the financial capitals of the world.

America has been afflicted with one financial scandal after another over the past generation – culminating in the 2008 financial panic, the effects of which we are still suffering under. It has widely been assumed that each of these scandals have had disparate causes, but in their new paper Bratton and Levitin argue that three of the most notorious scandals of the past generation — Michael Milken’s junk-bond-related securities fraud in the 1980s, the Enron scandal of the early 2000s, and the subprime mortgage meltdown of 2007-08 — are all linked by their use of an esoteric accounting mechanism called a “special purpose entity,” or SPE. When used dishonestly, SPEs are nothing more than financial sleight of hand, the clever shifting around of assets to trick regulators and investors into seeing something that isn’t there...

...And the subprime mortgage crisis was also caused, in part, by excessive and irresponsible use of SPEs. These vehicles allowed banks to hide risky subprime assets off their balance sheets and away from the prying eyes of regulators, freeing them to lever up even more in search of higher profits. Goldman Sachs was one of the more famous users of SPEs, when it created ABACUS, a synthetic collateralized debt obligation, which like most of these collections of subprime mortgages ended up in default. Goldman was fined $550 million by the SEC for not disclosing the true nature of this collection of mortgages to the investors that eventually bought them, but the greater problem with vehicles such as ABACUS were that it enabled banks to appear to regulators and investors as if they had moved the risk of the mortgages off their books, when in reality, many banks (and ultimately the taxpayer) ended up bailing out their special purpose entities when they went under.
http://business.time.com/2012/08/15/the-accounting-trick-behind-thirty-years-of-scandal/?xid=newsletter-daily
O0
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: Bison66 on October 14, 2012, 01:10:03 AM
Hey Y'all,

If you missed INSIDE JOB, the movie, check your listings for HBO.  

It's showing here; not sure about North America.  Just watched the end of it and it IS POWERFUL!!!  AGAIN!!!

SHOULD BE REQUIRED VIEWING FOR ALL AMERICANS.

www.insidejobfilm.com

And.....It won 7 top awards for documentaries, too.
O0

At the time I saw INSIDE JOB I had no idea that I was watching Rmoney's hand-picked economist who - it seems - is willing to say whatever those who pay him prefer him to say.  So much so that a fellow academic calls him a "mercenary."

Of all of the eerily sinister-looking men in the film, this one guy stood out to me because he took offense at being asked and pressed to share - with those who are reading or influenced by his writing - the groups that paid him hundreds of thousands of dollars.

To say I am NOT surprised would be the understatement of this young century.
Quote
Mr. Hubbard also brings to this job a certain amount of baggage. He appeared briefly in “Inside Job,” a scathing and Oscar-winning 2010 documentary about the financial crisis. The film has a segment about high-profile professors who blessed many of the financial instruments that led to the fiasco. Enter Mr. Hubbard, who is presented as a leading thinker far too cozy with industries he ought to be assessing at a critical distance.

“You have three more minutes,” he tells an interviewer who is pressing for the names of his consulting clients. And then, as his face contorts with rage, he adds, “Give it your best shot.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/14/business/glenn-hubbard-is-romneys-go-to-economist.html?partner=rss&emc=rss
O0
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: Bison66 on September 20, 2013, 10:48:00 PM
This article from The Economist - not at all a Liberal institution - analyses the causes of the financial crisis and seems to me to give a fair and balanced account of what happened.

An international economic crisis of such proportions was caused by a LOT more than a 14% default rate on sub-prime mortagages.

https://mail-attachment.googleusercontent.com/attachment/?ui=2&ik=08452d6117&view=att&th=1413b81761de0b32&attid=0.1&disp=inline&safe=1&zw&saduie=AG9B_P9hefnX0njBM2J8Wg7JiIau&sadet=1379729861213&sads=DVJphV67jpvmRnepxPNTmNDzHmw&sadssc=1

Hope that link works because it comes from a gmail attachment.

O0
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: Bison66 on October 20, 2013, 10:15:52 AM
J P Morgan AGREES to $13,000,000,000.00 penalty

 :thefan:

Why would they do that AND STILL BE SUSCEPTIBLE FOR THE PROSECUTION OF ITS EXECUTIVES if they had not been guilty of breaking the law, misleading investors and helping to cause the housing crash?

Quote
JPMorgan Chase, the nation’s largest bank, has reached a tentative agreement with the Justice Department to pay a record $13 billion to resolve allegations that it knowingly sold faulty mortgage securities that contributed to the financial crisis, a person familiar with the talks said Saturday.

If finalized, the deal would be the largest penalty ever paid by a single company, representing a tremendous win for the government after years of public criticism over its struggle to hold Wall Street accountable for its crisis-era misdeeds.

It would be the largest penalty paid by a single company but would leave the bank open to criminal prosecution.

It would also leave JPMorgan and its executives still at risk of criminal prosecution, a humbling concession. The bank emerged from the financial crisis relatively unscathed but has struggled to shake off the vestiges of that era. Like many banks, it has been accused of selling bad residential mortgages to investors, including Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, which lost billions when the housing market crashed.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/jpmorgan-close-to-13-billion-deal-with-justice/2013/10/19/7f51c918-38f8-11e3-80c6-7e6dd8d22d8f_story.html

Go 'head, Justice Dept!!!
And prosecute these folks!!!  FINISH THE JOB!!!!

If a guy can get jail time for snatching a purse to feed a drug habit, these guys (and gals?) can do hard time for snatching the value of folks 401(k)'s because they needed a third Mercedes!!!!!   :read:

Other illegal, discriminatory or highly questionable actions by big banks and related financial institutions:

Quote

Standard & Poor's
On Feb. 4, the U.S. government filed civil charges against Standard & Poor's Ratings Services, alleging that it improperly gave high ratings to mortgage debt that later plunged in value and helped fuel the 2008 financial crisis. The charges would mark the first enforcement action the government has taken against a major rating agency involving the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression.

Bank of America
In January 2011, Bank of America agreed to pay housing giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac $2.8 billion to put to rest claims that it had sold them faulty loans.

AIG
In March 2010, the Justice Department reached a $6.1 million settlement with two subsidiaries of American International Group to resolve allegations of discrimination against African American borrowers. The civil case accused the banking entity of charging black customers higher fees than white customers from July 2003 to May 2006.

Big banks
In February 2012, 17 big banks, including Ally Financial, HSBC and Morgan Stanley, agreed to pay $25 billion to settle allegations by state and federal officials that they used falsified documents to evict homeowners facing foreclosure. The deal represents the largest industry settlement since an agreement with tobacco companies in 1998.

Wells Fargo
In October 2012, Manhattan federal prosecutors accused Wells Fargo of reckless and fraudulent lending practices that cost the government hundreds of millions of dollars in insurance claims when those loans went bad. Separately, in July, the bank reached a $175 million settlement with the Justice Department to resolve accusations that it steered black and Latino borrowers into high-priced subprime loans.

Wells Fargo 
In May 2012, Wells Fargo agreed to pay $6.5 million to settle Securities and Exchange Commission charges that it sold troubled mortgage securities without disclosing the risks to customers.

JP Morgan Chase
In October, New York Attorney General Eric Schneiderman filed a civil lawsuit against JPMorgan Chase, alleging widespread fraud in the way that mortgages were packaged and sold to investors leading up to the financial crisis.

Countrywide
In December 2011, Bank of America settled fair-lending allegations against its Countrywide unit for $335 million. Countrywide was accused of charging black and Latino borrowers higher mortgage fees in the lead up to the financial crisis and steering them into riskier loans than their white counterparts.

Citigroup
In August 2012, Citigroup agreed to pay $590 million to settle a class-action lawsuit brought by investors alleging that the New York bank failed to disclose its exposure to toxic subprime mortgage debt. Separately, in October, Citigroup agreed to pay the Securities and Exchange Commission $285 million for misleading investors about collateralized debt obligations tied to the housing market.

SunTrust
In May, SunTrust Mortgage Inc. agreed to pay $21 million to settle charges brought by the Justice Department that it increased loan prices for black and Latino borrowers from 2005 to 2009.

Capital One
Capital One agreed to pay about $12 million in July to resolve a civil lawsuit brought by the Justice Department, alleging that the bank wrongfully foreclosed on service members, repossessed their vehicles and denied them favorable interest rates as far back as 2006.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/government-action-against-big-banks/2012/11/02/776f4706-21c1-11e2-8448-81b1ce7d6978_gallery.html#photo=1

This is the BIGGEST BUNCH OF CROOKS I've ever seen!!!!

And please note the items in BLUE and please tell me if I am the only one to detect a PATTERN and PRACTICE.............

Before I began this post, I had not noticed how many instances of "alleged" discrimination at multiple institutions there had been.
O0
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: iceman4221 on October 20, 2013, 11:11:04 PM
J P Morgan AGREES to $13,000,000,000.00 penalty

 :thefan:

Why would they do that AND STILL BE SUSCEPTIBLE FOR THE PROSECUTION OF ITS EXECUTIVES if they had not been guilty of breaking the law, misleading investors and helping to cause the housing crash?

Quote
JPMorgan Chase, the nation’s largest bank, has reached a tentative agreement with the Justice Department to pay a record $13 billion to resolve allegations that it knowingly sold faulty mortgage securities that contributed to the financial crisis, a person familiar with the talks said Saturday.

If finalized, the deal would be the largest penalty ever paid by a single company, representing a tremendous win for the government after years of public criticism over its struggle to hold Wall Street accountable for its crisis-era misdeeds.

It would be the largest penalty paid by a single company but would leave the bank open to criminal prosecution.

It would also leave JPMorgan and its executives still at risk of criminal prosecution, a humbling concession. The bank emerged from the financial crisis relatively unscathed but has struggled to shake off the vestiges of that era. Like many banks, it has been accused of selling bad residential mortgages to investors, including Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, which lost billions when the housing market crashed.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/jpmorgan-close-to-13-billion-deal-with-justice/2013/10/19/7f51c918-38f8-11e3-80c6-7e6dd8d22d8f_story.html

Go 'head, Justice Dept!!!
And prosecute these folks!!!  FINISH THE JOB!!!!

If a guy can get jail time for snatching a purse to feed a drug habit, these guys (and gals?) can do hard time for snatching the value of folks 401(k)'s because they needed a third Mercedes!!!!!   :read:

Other illegal, discriminatory or highly questionable actions by big banks and related financial institutions:

Quote

Standard & Poor's
On Feb. 4, the U.S. government filed civil charges against Standard & Poor's Ratings Services, alleging that it improperly gave high ratings to mortgage debt that later plunged in value and helped fuel the 2008 financial crisis. The charges would mark the first enforcement action the government has taken against a major rating agency involving the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression.

Bank of America
In January 2011, Bank of America agreed to pay housing giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac $2.8 billion to put to rest claims that it had sold them faulty loans.

AIG
In March 2010, the Justice Department reached a $6.1 million settlement with two subsidiaries of American International Group to resolve allegations of discrimination against African American borrowers. The civil case accused the banking entity of charging black customers higher fees than white customers from July 2003 to May 2006.

Big banks
In February 2012, 17 big banks, including Ally Financial, HSBC and Morgan Stanley, agreed to pay $25 billion to settle allegations by state and federal officials that they used falsified documents to evict homeowners facing foreclosure. The deal represents the largest industry settlement since an agreement with tobacco companies in 1998.

Wells Fargo
In October 2012, Manhattan federal prosecutors accused Wells Fargo of reckless and fraudulent lending practices that cost the government hundreds of millions of dollars in insurance claims when those loans went bad. Separately, in July, the bank reached a $175 million settlement with the Justice Department to resolve accusations that it steered black and Latino borrowers into high-priced subprime loans.

Wells Fargo 
In May 2012, Wells Fargo agreed to pay $6.5 million to settle Securities and Exchange Commission charges that it sold troubled mortgage securities without disclosing the risks to customers.

JP Morgan Chase
In October, New York Attorney General Eric Schneiderman filed a civil lawsuit against JPMorgan Chase, alleging widespread fraud in the way that mortgages were packaged and sold to investors leading up to the financial crisis.

Countrywide
In December 2011, Bank of America settled fair-lending allegations against its Countrywide unit for $335 million. Countrywide was accused of charging black and Latino borrowers higher mortgage fees in the lead up to the financial crisis and steering them into riskier loans than their white counterparts.

Citigroup
In August 2012, Citigroup agreed to pay $590 million to settle a class-action lawsuit brought by investors alleging that the New York bank failed to disclose its exposure to toxic subprime mortgage debt. Separately, in October, Citigroup agreed to pay the Securities and Exchange Commission $285 million for misleading investors about collateralized debt obligations tied to the housing market.

SunTrust
In May, SunTrust Mortgage Inc. agreed to pay $21 million to settle charges brought by the Justice Department that it increased loan prices for black and Latino borrowers from 2005 to 2009.

Capital One
Capital One agreed to pay about $12 million in July to resolve a civil lawsuit brought by the Justice Department, alleging that the bank wrongfully foreclosed on service members, repossessed their vehicles and denied them favorable interest rates as far back as 2006.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/government-action-against-big-banks/2012/11/02/776f4706-21c1-11e2-8448-81b1ce7d6978_gallery.html#photo=1

This is the BIGGEST BUNCH OF CROOKS I've ever seen!!!!

And please note the items in BLUE and please tell me if I am the only one to detect a PATTERN and PRACTICE.............

Before I began this post, I had not noticed how many instances of "alleged" discrimination at multiple institutions there had been.
O0

Thanks Bison66 for posting, this Chit stinks from here to Timbuctoo...
Title: Re: For Those Who STILL Think Sub Prime Mortgages Were the Cause of the Crash
Post by: Bison66 on October 28, 2013, 12:27:53 PM
(http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/70725000/jpg/_70725347_019751158.jpg)

JP Morgan settles for $5.1 BILLION with US housing regulator

THAT'S WITH A B!!

Quote
JP Morgan has reached a $5.1bn (£3.2bn) settlement with the US Federal Housing Finance Agency (FHFA) over charges it misled mortgage giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac during the housing boom.

A separate settlement with the US Justice Department is expected to be announced soon.

"This is a significant step to address outstanding mortgage-related issues," the FHFA said in a statement.

It is the biggest settlement ever by a US bank.

In a statement JP Morgan said the settlement resolves the biggest case against the firm relating to mortgage-backed securities.

The bank added that the agreement relates to "approximately $33.8 billion of securities purchased by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac from JP Morgan, Bear Stearns and Washington Mutual" from 2005 - 2007.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-24679735

Go 'head, Atty Gen Holder!!!

But the prosecutions are the only way to teach these folks a scary lesson about Vulture Capitalism!  Otherwise, shareholders (lower stock prices) and bank customers (higher fees) suffer alone.
O0