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Discussion => General Discussion Forum => Topic started by: y04185 on June 29, 2009, 03:51:15 PM

Title: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: y04185 on June 29, 2009, 03:51:15 PM
what are your thoughts.  do you really know why a slave or free black would fight for the south.

full story (http://www.42ndgeorgia.com/42nd_georgia_historical_document4_page.htm)

Modern Historians and students of history often reject the claims that African Americans actually fought for the Confederate States of America.  We find it difficult to believe or even understand why black slaves or free would possibly fight in defense for this system and its country.

This Subject has been neglected and long overdue lacking the attention to the finer details of the American Civil War. Often times certain subject matters are often pushed a sided, forgotten or even covered over because of Racism or “not being politically correct”. So many Times in history, it is written by the Victors of these battles and often rewritten by one-sided opinions, not by the views of the losers, who may possibly give the complete story, no matter how controversial or factually true it may be.

May the Unfinished Chapter of the Forgotten Soldier ‘s Story be told

The Forgotten Confederate Soldier – Our Unsung Heroes of the South…… I am referring to the Black Southern Man – both Slave & Free.

A professor from Southern University said, "When you eliminate the black Confederate soldier, you've eliminated the history of the South."

Over the past hundred years, we have erected many Monuments for Union Soldiers throughout this Great country but have showed little regard to the Southern Veterans of their equally important sacrifice for freedom and liberty. Maybe, a Traitor’s name is stills very much part of its heritage and shame it still carries.

The First of Many Monuments to honor Union Soldiers was built for the 2,111 Civil War Unknowns were buried in a memorial just outside of Arlington House in 1866. A small amphitheater was dedicated in 1874, to accommodate the large crowds that attended Memorial Day ceremonies to honor Civil War-era dead;

However, The first military monument in the US Capitol that honors an African-American soldier is the Confederate monument, which was built in 1914 at Arlington National cemetery. (A black Confederate soldier is depicted marching in step with white Confederate soldiers).

(http://www.42ndgeorgia.com/images/barry5.jpg)
Shown above is the 1890 Alabama Confederate Veterans Reunion. In this photo there are more than 40 black Southern men present.

(http://www.42ndgeorgia.com/images/barry6.jpg)

Why did Black Slaves and Free blacks fight for the Confederacy?

This seems like a paradox why so many served under the flag of the Stars & Bars.  These Black southerners did support their country and that by doing so they were “demonstrating it’s possible to hate the system of slavery and love one’s country.” This is the very same reaction that most African Americans showed during the American Revolution, where they fought for the colonies, even though the British offered them freedom if they fought for them.

However, the quest for Freedom played a very important role in black confederate decisions with good service to the master or to the southern cause, there was hope of being released from slavery after the war. Slaves also knew the army life offered them a chance for adventure and opportunity to get away from drudgery of plantation work. The Slaves also who felt compelled to volunteer for the south did so because they hoped it would improve their status after the war. They also knew if the North won they would probably be free, but if the south won, they would have to show support during the war if they had hopes of being free.


Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: ‘87 Alum on June 29, 2009, 03:53:29 PM
I really believe you already know the answer to this one Y.
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: y04185 on June 29, 2009, 03:55:51 PM
'87, read the link.  it is not what most people think.

i do know that when they had the 50th anniversary at gettysburg it was the south that welcomed the blacks from both sides that fought.  the north did not want anything to do with the black union veterans who fought at gettysburg.
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: ‘87 Alum on June 29, 2009, 03:59:31 PM
I did read it....and the reason why southern blacks fought for the confederacy is more likely due to either religion, fear or both.
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: y04185 on June 29, 2009, 04:13:36 PM
I did read it....and the reason why southern blacks fought for the confederacy is more likely due to either religion, fear or both.

you must have read something totally different.  what religion.  what did they fear.
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: ‘87 Alum on June 29, 2009, 04:20:12 PM
you're unsure how Christianity and slavery are a woven fabric; and also unsure how fear was rooted as a standing principle of slavery?

that part wasn't in the link you provided but is something that most of us have known for a while now....
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: Bison 4 Life on June 29, 2009, 04:28:25 PM
Interesting article.Poorly writen but interesting.Leaves alot out and is pandoring in spots.

I think I know the VaPilot writer mentioned.
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: y04185 on June 29, 2009, 05:57:00 PM
12 reasons we don't believe in black confederates

full story (http://thomaslegion.net/twelve_reasons_we_dont_believe_in_black_confederates.html)

Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: NovaSkegee on June 29, 2009, 06:19:37 PM
I really believe you already know the answer to this one Y.

I think everyone already knows the answer. Enslaved Africans were forced into doing certain things directly and indirectly.

 
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: y04185 on June 29, 2009, 06:24:47 PM
you guys need provide some proof. 

if what you claim is true why did blacks show up and were welcomed at confederate veterans reunions.

it must be hard to realize what you were taught and believed about the civil war was 100 percent wrong.
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: ‘87 Alum on June 29, 2009, 06:36:10 PM
you guys need provide some proof. 

if what you claim is true why did blacks show up and were welcomed at confederate veterans reunions.

it must be hard to realize what you were taught and believed about the civil war was 100 percent wrong.

i don't think so Y.  you can believe what you want and i will do the same.  you know the Doobie Bros had a powerful message with their epic hit "what a fool believes"..... :lmao:
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: y04185 on June 29, 2009, 06:39:43 PM
'87, provide some proof.  back up what you believe.
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: Bison66 on June 29, 2009, 09:21:44 PM
Thank you, y04.  This was, although very poorly written, a very interesting article.  I had read of Black Confederates but had never delved into the subject.

The answer to the thread title question seems quite clear to me. 

Based solely upon the information reported in the article, Black folks made individual judgements as to what was in their best interest.  Some, perhaps with more limited options, chose to fight with the South with the "promise" of freedom or the calculation to hedge their bets in case the South won the war.  (They may have been disappointed just as some Blacks - who sided with the British in 1777, in return for the "promise" of freedom - were when they were shipped off to plantations in the Caribbean.)  Others, as the article reports, perhaps closer to the northern  border of the CSA, escaped in the thousands to the North for freedom or to join the Union.

I did not buy the argument that Black Confederate troops weren't motivated by family ties to return South.  For me, that's dog that won't hunt at all.

Stepping outside the framework of the article, it is my opinion that AMONG the reasons Blacks fought for the South is the classic Stockholm Syndrome in which kidnapped, hostaged people begin to identify with their captors and begin to sympathize with them and support their interests in the sometimes misguided idea that their captives' interests are actually the same as theirs.  Studies show that this begins after only hours or days and was observed among inmates in the Nazi concentration camps as well.

After having been stripped of name, culture, family, heritage, etc for generations and generations and having suffered from constant fear and terror, it is to be expected that some, or even many, enslaved Africans would eventually come to identify with their enslavers.  Malcom X spoke about the "Massa, we sick?" kind of thinking.  Some of that was designed to curry favor and some, no doubt, was sincere.  Either way, it is perfectly understandable to me why some enslaved and free Blacks fought with the Confederacy - as much as, in retrospect, it was against their interests to do so.  However, for those who were hedging their bets, it worked out, in terms of gaining their freedom, anyway.
 O0
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: y04185 on June 30, 2009, 07:19:56 AM
bison. slavery was economically out of the door.  especially for the large plantation owners.  the slaves were in the fields and raising livestock to feed themselves.  slavery would have died out in fifteen years because the slave owners would not have been able to afford slaves. 

i don't think the stockholm syndrome was that important.  the slave was getting off the plantation.  he had a choice.  go to the union side for ten dollars a month or go to the confederate side for thirty dollars a month.  in the confederacy the slaves got the same wages as the white soldiers.

you might have a point with the stockholm syndrome when it comes to the free blacks in the south. 
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: Maddogfall84 on June 30, 2009, 07:43:06 AM
Thought provoking thread :nod: I will sit back for a second :tiptoe:
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: NovaSkegee on June 30, 2009, 09:37:47 AM
you guys need provide some proof. 

if what you claim is true why did blacks show up and were welcomed at confederate veterans reunions.

it must be hard to realize what you were taught and believed about the civil war was 100 percent wrong.

January 20, 2009

Blacks That Fought For the South: Ignorant, Scared, Or Forced?



Mario Salas

One of the biggest lies out there, and being propagandized by a group that is calls itself the Sons of Confederate Veterans, is the falsehood that Blacks fought to protect their slave owning masters. We can suppose that there were some that did, just like there were some who sold out Martin Luther King and were paid snitches against the Black Panthers and SNCC. But the overwhelming majority of African- Americans would have never been trusted with a gun given to them by a racist, slave-owning Confederate government.

The mental propaganda that Blacks were forced to endure probably produced some misguided and ignorant people that thought they could believe the lies of the southern gentlemen slave owning class.We can certainly assume that some Blacks fought for the slave owners because they were forced to do so, and their families threatened with death by the Southern murderous slave class. It would also stand to reason that free Blacks might have been tempted to fight for the Confederacy since their status as freemen would be jeopardized if they didn’t.

There were all sorts of ways to intimidate Blacks in those days including rape, hanging, beatings, and sheer terror. All of these methods were used by the brutal and murderous Confederate States to suppress slave rebellions and Black insurrections. Why would one argue about the number of Blacks that fought for the Confederacy, if any, unless one was trying to justify slavery and racism?

We can find instances of Native Americans who fought with U.S. soldiers intent on committing genocide against another Native American tribe, but that does not mean they weren’t duped. In fact, many Native Americans were promised all sorts of “forked tongued” gifts if they helped destroy other tribes. Some fell for it!

The same can be argued that there must have been some Uncle Toms that wanted to protect their slave masters, and some who were forced or given false promises. We can be sure of one thing, the Southern Heritage of racism, slavery, and murder was coupled with a campaign of sophisticated lies designed to fool people into supporting one of the most evil regimes in history—the Confederate States of America. There is no such thing as “Southern Heritage” outside of the realm of slavery, hatred, murder, and bigotry.

The South has already begun its journey toward self-inspection, with the realization that the Southern way of life was ruined and tainted by slavery. We always have to look with a weary-eye at anyone who refuses to accept the fact that “Southern Heritage” can never be divorced from the horrors of genocide and murder against its Black citizens. Anyone talking about “Southern heritage” outside of its racist history is a Klansman, a fool, or just plain ignorant.

The great majority of Blacks hated the southern heritage of slavery and racism. Some of them were smart enough to bide their time by telling their slave masters that they supported them over the Union forces, while all the while plotting for the defeat of the rebels. Some even served as spies and provided valuable information as to where the rebels were hiding and had hidden their weapons.

Many slaves escaped the racist South, deserting their forced allegiance to the Confederacy, and joined the Union armies to help with crushing blows that finally ended the institution of slavery. Many free Blacks, fearful of the laws that the southern states were enacting after John Brown’s raid, offered their services to the Confederacy by building defensive works and constructing vessels. But, they only did so in order to protect their freedom or the hope of it.

There are pictures of Blacks in Confederate unions, but this proves nothing as it was a common practice to use Blacks as propaganda to make people in the North think that Blacks loved being slaves. We cannot believe pictures from that era nor newspaper accounts claiming that Blacks supported the South for the simple reason that the slave owners owned the newspapers, and had the ability to force Blacks to say whatever they wanted under penalty of death.

Some pictures appear to be forged as they were of Black Mexicans. These were not slaves at all. Blacks were forced into service and made to do the work of the Confederate States of America. This is something that should never be celebrated and is a disgrace to raise it to the level of a civilized society.

Any people that are forced to take up arms in defense of their slavers or oppressors can never be equated with justice or heroism. We must realize that the Confederate States of America was an ugly blot upon history and should never be celebrated. That organization should be looked at in much the same way we view the despicable Nazi regime of Adolph Hitler. Everyone should be careful when surfing the web for there are dozens of racist Web sites that repeat the lies that the slave owners invented hundreds of years ago.
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: y04185 on June 30, 2009, 09:46:16 AM
nova, can you provide a link or is that just your opinion.
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: Jaimac on June 30, 2009, 09:51:59 AM
Don't you see the author listed with the article Nova posted?  

Although he should have posted the link, the article is legitimate.
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: y04185 on June 30, 2009, 09:55:15 AM
Don't you see the author listed with the article Nova posted?  

Although he should have posted the link, the article is legitimate.

how do we know that.
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: Bison66 on June 30, 2009, 01:44:03 PM
y04,

I am not clear on what you seek to imply by stating that "slavery was out of the door."  I am aware of the retrospective economic analyses that say that slavery was uneconomical, but I doubt that was realized at the time of the Civil War.  But I'd be open to being persuaded otherwise by documents of contemporaneous discussion amongst the planter class.  From what I have read, slavers, the human predators and human trafficers that they were, primarily freed slaves when all other options were gone.

In what context are you speaking when you say, " the slave was getting off the plantation.  he had a choice.  go to the union side for ten dollars a month or go to the confederate side for thirty dollars a month." ??

"Choice"?  As in "freedom" of movement?  You speak as if slaves were already freed under the CSA.

 O0

I don't think so.

 O0

Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: scstatealum on June 30, 2009, 02:20:23 PM
I did read it....and the reason why southern blacks fought for the confederacy is more likely due to either religion, fear or both.

they fought for the conferderacy because they were told that if they did, and won, that they would be freed....which of course, was a lie....but whatever...
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: y04185 on June 30, 2009, 02:41:48 PM
bison, the slaves knew what they would make per month.  they knew what they would bring on the slave market.  if a slave wanted to buy his freedom he could do it much quicker fighting on the csa side.  slaves weren't as ignorant as some historians would make them out to be.

by the time the civil war started the plantation owners had already read the writing on the wall.  in the book the negro in virginia the economics of virginia and the south is clearly explained.  

'87, you have no proof they would not be set free if the south had won.
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: Bison66 on June 30, 2009, 06:42:04 PM
bison, the slaves knew what they would make per month.  they knew what they would bring on the slave market.  if a slave wanted to buy his freedom he could do it much quicker fighting on the csa side.  slaves weren't as ignorant as some historians would make them out to be.

That's all good, but my questions remain unanswered.  Knowledge of the enslaved is not the question; it is their ability to act on that info.

"In what context are you speaking when you say, " the slave was getting off the plantation.  he had a choice.  go to the union side for ten dollars a month or go to the confederate side for thirty dollars a month." ??

"Choice"?  As in "freedom" of movement?  You speak as if slaves were already freed under the CSA."

More concretely, let me say that the "choice" you mention is between:
1) running away (risking severe punishment, including maiming, and leaving children and loved ones), making way through somewhat unknown territory during war time with troops on patrol, sneaking through Confederate Army lines to get to Union lines without knowing for sure they could get in the Army to be paid (many Blacks were not accepted).
vs.
2) raising their hands to volunteer for the CSA AND being paid with the knowledge, since you say they were so well informed*, that if the South lost, they would be freed anyway and, if the South won, they'd expect some "return on their investment."

But my larger point is that enslaved Africans did not have freedom of movement to exercise what might have been their "true" choice.

Answers?
 O0

*I will, however, remind you that most of the enslaved in Texas did not learn of Emancipation until much later.

Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: Bison66 on June 30, 2009, 06:57:42 PM

by the time the civil war started the plantation owners had already read the writing on the wall.  in the book the negro in virginia the economics of virginia and the south is clearly explained.

y04,

Don't have that book in my library, but since it was published in 1940 that is not enough for me to conclude, as you have, that plantation owners in the 1860s "had already read the writing on the wall."  I assume it contains some of the planters' contemporary thinking about abolishing slavery.  Is that correct?  I must say that the self-interested economic thinking of human traffickers, rapists and terrorists was never much of an interest of mine.

 O0
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: Bison66 on July 05, 2009, 02:24:17 PM
y04,

I was hoping to hear back from you on the "choice" issue, but....moving on.

In reply to my:
Quote
... it is my opinion that AMONG the reasons Blacks fought for the South is the classic Stockholm Syndrome in which kidnapped, hostaged people begin to identify with their captors and begin to sympathize with them and support their interests in the sometimes misguided idea that their captives' interests are actually the same as theirs.  Studies show that this begins after only hours or days and was observed among inmates in the Nazi concentration camps as well.

After having been stripped of name, culture, family, heritage, etc for generations and generations and having suffered from constant fear and terror, it is to be expected that some, or even many, enslaved Africans would eventually come to identify with their enslavers.  Malcom X spoke about the "Massa, we sick?" kind of thinking.  Some of that was designed to curry favor and some, no doubt, was sincere.

You replied, in part:

....i don't think the stockholm syndrome was that important.....  
......you might have a point with the stockholm syndrome when it comes to the free blacks in the south.  

I wonder if you might explain how, IYO, a freed Black person in the CSA, who was somewhat less under the thumb of white folks, might be more affected by the Stockholm Syndrome than a person who, moreso, lived or died at the whim of his or her so-called owners.

http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=24038
and

Quote
What is Stockholm Syndrome?
Stockholm Syndrome is a mental and emotional coping mechanism that seems to be inherent in the human psyche.  It is a way of forgetting, or dissociating from, one's own pain and feelings of terror, anger, and helplessness  by focusing on the face, voice, odor, mannerisms, etc. of the abuser or captor.   Stockholm Syndrome is subconsciously used by many victims to deal with dangerous individuals by mimicking them unconsciously, thereby enlisting their protection and kindness.   By expressing sympathy towards the aggressor,  the victim can sometimes avoid harm or death at the aggressor's hands.
http://naffoundation.org/Stockholm_Syndrome.htm

Although there is still dispute about the Syndrome, some medical experts believe it is a form of Defense Mechanism, which is an important aspect of Freudian theory:
"In Freudian psychoanalytic theory, defence mechanisms or defense mechanisms (see -ce/-se) are psychological strategies brought into play by various entities to cope with reality and to maintain self-image. Healthy persons normally use different defences throughout life. An ego defence mechanism becomes pathological only when its persistent use leads to maladaptive behavior such that the physical and/or mental health of the individual is adversely affected. The purpose of the Ego Defence Mechanisms is to protect the mind/self/ego from anxiety, social sanctions or to provide a refuge from a situation with which one cannot currently cope."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_mechanisms

This next, rather long piece is not about enslaved Africans(rather it describes the author's take on current day Americans as slaves of their govt), but I believe the analysis certainly applies much more to the topic of this discusssion than the author's.  (I have deleted some of the author's present day commentary, which you can see at the link.)

Quote
Most common of all, and the reason I bring this matter to your attention, is: 'the common fear to escape the captivity of slavery' where people refuse to accept actions, experience and reason that shows 'their' government is their enemy. The syndrome could, more correctly, be called the "Slave Loyalty Syndrome".

It is now well documented that people, when captured by forces that they feel helpless to resist, seek to appease these forces and work with them. It is a basic survival instinct. If we are to understand why people, in general, appear blind to the reality of their enslavement after generations of subjugation to what we may call 'political forces', we need to admit of this primitive feature of our nature...................

At present we are not facing our problem! We complain, we protest, we become agitated, but we do not trust ourselves to understand our situation and escape....

...Over the long period of human slavery, slaves have had many opportunities to escape but have rarely taken them. Perhaps the only time they really try to escape is when the master makes life so unbearable that they feel they would be better off dead; in this situation an attempt to escape may seem a better alternative than suicide. The forces that bind us are many, they are not weak and should not be underestimated.
http://www.themindweb.com/humanity/stockholm.asp

I maintain that AMONG the reasons Blacks fought for the CSA is a version of the Stockholm Syndrome.

Any comment, anyone?
 O0



Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: Bison66 on April 20, 2012, 03:49:24 PM
Perhaps after all of this time, y04 would like to respond to the issues I raised almost 3 years ago.

Meanwhile I came across an interesting summary of Black soldiers fighting on the Union side.

Lengthy but excellent:

http://www.nps.gov/history/history/online_books/civil_war_series/2/sec18.htm
O0
787
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: Que82 on April 20, 2012, 04:59:27 PM
 :offtopic:

why did do Onnidan slaves and free blacks fight for  belong to the confederate states of america republican party. :shrug:
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: Cholly on April 21, 2012, 11:58:54 PM
^^^YOU took the words right offa my fingertips!!!  >:(

Actually, I was going to post some ascerbic comment about wh?y APPEARING to defend 19th Century race traitors... then I remembered that last week I posted pictures of black confederate soldiers in other threads and inferred that they represented Onnidan coonservatives.

I guess wh?y took those pictures to heart. ::)
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: Jay_Thomas on April 22, 2012, 02:25:43 AM
 :tongue2:
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: Thinkingaboutit on April 22, 2012, 05:48:12 AM
Cholly, there are some challenged individuals on this board.  Wh 'y', I don't know. Maybe  Wh 'y' some persons missed the chance to fight for the continuance of their complete subjugation and dominion that chattel system had upon  people.  Ignorance is blissful.  There are psychological  infantilizing processes the take place in conditions when persons are under complete physical and social control they cooperate with the powers subjecting that person to complete dominion. It was so with the Jews during encampment during the second world war and currently with some Guantanamo visitors.
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: Cholly on April 22, 2012, 10:09:27 AM
^^^Describes oldslave/spot/spurt/snot/sh!t to a "T".  :nod:

wh?y is  smarter than he PRETENDS to be... but not NEARLY as smart as he thinks he is.

He actually KNOWS better, but is morally corrupt and therefore DELIBERATELY pushing this garbage on the rest of us... maybe to make himself FEEL better.

Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of modern day house slaves? :shrug:
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: Bison66 on November 03, 2012, 12:13:38 AM
Came across an interesting and unknown (to me) Black organization called the Loyal League that had prepared in advance for the Civil War as an opportunity to free enslaved Africans in America.

Video:  http://www.civilwar.org/video/hari-jones-the-loyal-league.html
 
Print:  http://afroamcivilwar.org/component/content/8.html?task=view
Be sure to also scroll down for info on spies/scouts.

Quote
The Legal League anticipated the Civil War and had spies, guides and scouts in place when the war began.  However, when the war began League objectives were not being served, the war was not a war “to overthrow or interfere with slavery” and men of African (descent) were prohibited from joining the federal army. 

Allan Pinkerton, the head of Union intelligence in the first year of the war observed: “Although as yet prevented from taking up arms in defense of their rights, these colored men had banded themselves together to further the cause of freedom, to succor the escaping slave, and to furnish information to loyal commanders of the movements of the rebels, as far as they could be ascertained.”   When this situation changed on January 1, 1863, Union fortunes changed.
O0
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: EB on November 03, 2012, 03:24:10 AM
I'll add a couple of thoughts especially since Sept. 17, 2012 was the 150th anniversary of the Battle of Antietam.  After the battle Lincoln prepared the emancipation and Black men were recruited for the Union Army and Navy (of which Louis Lattimer was a veteran).

I think that B66 hit it on the head about Stockholm syndrome.  Some probably felt some sentimental attachment though despite being slaves.  As I believe it was the case with Spike Lee's ancestor, a slave, they had to work for the Confederacy because they were slaves.  (Lee's ancestor made parts for the Confederacy.)  The slaves did not have a lot of choices.

Slavery was a powerful economic institution.  Not only did southern plantation owners wanted to keep the institution going but some northern industrialists did too.  The cotton picked in the south was made into fabric in the north.  More than a few rich northerners benefited from southern slavery.

Had Lee won at Antietam, France and England might have helped the south.  In some cases Europeans did help the south.  Though France and England ended slavery in their territories during the 1830s, they also benefited from southern slavery similar to the way that northern interests did.  BTW the French and British did not end slavery because of their enlightenment.  There were revolts in their territories too.

Let's not forget that there was the Fugitive Slave Act.  Slave catchers were across the north.  New York had as many as any other state.

After the war came a practice that historians said were worse than slavery.  It was the convict lease system.  The convict lease system helped to build some businesses of which some are in existence today, and debt peonage existed well into the 20th century.  Year ago the History Channel did a program on the convict lease system, and this year PBS did a special this year.  Some books have been written on the subject.
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: CU1994 on November 03, 2012, 10:42:00 AM
Unfortunately, the article has been removed but I have read similar article and heard similar arguments in the past. The answer is rather simple. People have many different motivations for what they do. First, there was an article or a book written on black participation in the Confederacy. While there were people of African descent who participated on the side of the  Confederacy, those numbers have been exaggerated for political gain. We know that some people will identify with their captors and will fight to keep themselves oppressed. W.E.B. pointed this out eloquently in the Souls of Black Folk. Why would other slaves thwart the freedom efforts of Gabriel Prosser and Denmark Vessey? Why would some Native Americans fight with the American Government when the government was proven to be untrustworthy and in the process of committing genocide against a whole culture of people? Some people will always fight against their own interests. Mental slavery is powerful and last a hello of lot longer than physical slavery. Many of us, even many of us who think we have arrived are still mentally enslaved and brainwashed. Just think of how many black folk are still color struck. you still have clown a**  black men that only date light skin women. People of African descent looking like clowns by dying their hair blond and wearing blue contacts. Some people will do what ever they can to identify with the dominant culture and if that means fighting against the interest of your people, then so be it.
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: EPJr on November 03, 2012, 12:01:33 PM
living in Richmond we are forced to deal with the Civil War on a daily basis.

Three years ago we delved into the subject in February. The last Sunday in February we devote to black military accomphishments. The head of the committee tackled the subject and even invited some Sons of the Confederacy to participate.

Instead of ignoring the sacrifice of fellow Virginians we have pushed to have them acknowledged in the Museum of The Confederacy here in Richmond
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: Bison66 on November 04, 2012, 01:35:28 AM
EB said:
Quote
I think that B66 hit it on the head about Stockholm syndrome.  Some probably felt some sentimental attachment though despite being slaves.

I almost forgot about that point, EB.

I am inclined to think that the SS played a major part in the psyches of many Blacks up until the 1950's and 1960's when a few took courageous steps to secure their and others' rights and.......survived.

The "spell" was broken and then when people like Malcolm X, James Foreman, Kwame Ture (Stokely) spoke fearlessly in front of and to white people, the "spell" was smashed.

It's only a "pet theory" without science to support it, but having lived through that period, I think it has merit.  I am old enough to remember when many Black people would unconsciously go into a whisper - mid sentence - when they used the word "white" in reference to people....in an all-Black setting!!!  I may have previously mentioned that a co-worker of mine, several years my senior, from the South and a retired Senior (or Chief?) Master Sergeant, was still doing that into the late 1990's.  "Lifelong" habits are hard to break.
O0
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: Bison66 on March 18, 2014, 11:56:28 PM
(http://www.flickr.com/photos/heritagefoundationfranklin/4768549087/)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/heritagefoundationfranklin/4768549087/

This photo of Confederate Veterans shows two Black "veterans" - segregated in the bottom, of course, right, of course, corner.

Their duties are also listed:  Porter.

O0

Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: Dog in Me on March 19, 2014, 08:22:44 AM
Malcolm once said and I paraphrase

The salve master's house was on fire. The field negro said let it burn, lets pour  kerosene on it, let it burn. The house negro says massa we's house on fire. Let me help you put it out.

Just my way of saying some of those house negros probably fought willingly for the south.
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: y04185 on March 19, 2014, 08:37:20 AM
Malcolm once said and I paraphrase

The salve master's house was on fire. The field negro said let it burn, lets pour  kerosene on it, let it burn. The house negro says massa we's house on fire. Let me help you put it out.

Just my way of saying some of those house negros probably fought willingly for the south.

You really should read your history instead of listening to others.
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: Ken on March 19, 2014, 08:48:40 AM
Is not reading history a form of listening to otherS?? HIS-STORY.
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: Dog in Me on March 19, 2014, 09:15:39 AM
You are to be congratulated for ALL your time being a member of Onnidan you have never quoted anyone in your posts.
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: Bison66 on March 19, 2014, 02:45:34 PM
 :snicker

O0
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: MyTeVyKn on March 20, 2014, 10:49:33 AM
Just thought I would chime in to this post as I find it very interesting to me.  Lately, I have been reading and catching up on the different nuances of black folk from the time of slavery, through the reconstruction period, "Jim Crow", and the Civil Rights movement.  I have included military service as part of these readings especially, especially the Civil War.  I have read books about blacks who fought for the Confederacy and blacks who fought for the Union.  There were several instances as to why they fought.  BUT, I found that the one or two things that they ALL had in common whether enslaved or free was that they both fought for RESPECT (to be looked upon as an equal and FREEDOM not just in the physical sense but in a more wholisitc sense.
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: Ken on March 20, 2014, 12:53:44 PM
How could blacks fight for the confederate states when they were not allowed to have weapons??-- they served as porters, etc. but what do you think would have happened had the confederates armed blacks???
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: EL JAY on March 20, 2014, 03:24:35 PM
I am curious to know if any black confederate units fought directly against a black union unit? 
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: Bison66 on March 20, 2014, 04:13:10 PM
I am curious to know if any black confederate units fought directly against a black union unit? 


Let's first find the answer to the issue that Ken raised:  Did Blacks in the Army of the CSA actually FIGHT?

PERHAPS, y04 has some links for that.  He seems to have a special interest.
O0
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: y04185 on March 20, 2014, 05:21:15 PM
How could blacks fight for the confederate states when they were not allowed to have weapons??-- they served as porters, etc. but what do you think would have happened had the confederates armed blacks???

I'll try to look it up over the weekend.  Don't have time today unless I luck up on something.  For now this will have to do  http://civilwargazette.wordpress.com/2008/03/13/did-blacks-fight-in-combat-for-the-confederacy/

That would be a great question for Dr. Jeffries the next time he is on The Jack Gravely Show.  He would definitely know the answer.
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: y04185 on March 20, 2014, 08:35:07 PM
This from another source.

Read more (http://www.civilwarhome.com/blacks.htm)

Blacks Who Fought For the South

      Most historical accounts portray Southern blacks as anxiously awaiting President Abraham Lincoln's "liberty-dispensing troops" marching south in the War Between the States. But there's more to the story; let's look at it.
        Black Confederate military units, both as freemen and slaves, fought federal troops. Louisiana free blacks gave their reason for fighting in a letter written to New Orleans' Daily Delta: "The free colored population love their home, their property, their own slaves and recognize no other country than Louisiana, and are ready to shed their blood for her defense. They have no sympathy for Abolitionism; no love for the North, but they have plenty for Louisiana. They will fight for her in 1861 as they fought in 1814-15." As to bravery, one black scolded the commanding general of the state militia, saying, "Pardon me, general, but the only cowardly blood we have got in our veins is the white blood."
        Gen. Nathan Bedford Forrest had slaves and freemen serving in units under his command. After the war, Forrest said of the black men who served under him, "These boys stayed with me.. - and better Confederates did not live." Articles in "Black Southerners in Gray," edited by Richard Rollins, gives numerous accounts of blacks serving as fighting men or servants in every battle from Gettysburg to Vicksburg.
        Professor Ed Smith, director of American Studies at American University, says Stonewall Jackson had 3,000 fully equipped black troops scattered throughout his corps at Antietam - the war's bloodiest battle. Mr. Smith calculates that between 60,000 and 93,000 blacks served the Confederacy in some capacity. They fought for the same reason they fought in previous wars and wars afterward: "to position themselves. They had to prove they were patriots in the hope the future would be better ... they hoped to be rewarded."
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: Bison66 on March 20, 2014, 09:53:48 PM
y04,

Thanks for one good post (the first one); not so much for the second one, although there is a bit of good info there.

This, from the CivilWarHome.com site, is one reason:  
Quote
This area of the Home of the American Civil War website is dedicated to telling the Confederate side of the story. It makes no attempt to be unbiased. It merely attempts to tell the OTHER story.

But thanks for contributing to the dialogue.

I must admit, I really loved that Louisiana Home Guard soldier who "corrected" the General by telling him that the only cowardly blood in the Black soldiers was "the white blood."

Now...
Since, y04, you are in the discussion mood and mode, perhaps after all this time you will actually address what I posed to you nearly 4 years ago:

bison, the slaves knew what they would make per month.  they knew what they would bring on the slave market.  if a slave wanted to buy his freedom he could do it much quicker fighting on the csa side.  slaves weren't as ignorant as some historians would make them out to be.

That's all good, but my questions remain unanswered.  Knowledge of the enslaved is not the question; it is their ability to act on that info.

"In what context are you speaking when you say, " the slave was getting off the plantation.  he had a choice.  go to the union side for ten dollars a month or go to the confederate side for thirty dollars a month." ??

"Choice"?  As in "freedom" of movement?  You speak as if slaves were already freed under the CSA."

More concretely, let me say that the "choice" you mention is between:
1) running away (risking severe punishment, including maiming, and leaving children and loved ones), making way through somewhat unknown territory during war time with troops on patrol, sneaking through Confederate Army lines to get to Union lines without knowing for sure they could get in the Army to be paid (many Blacks were not accepted).
vs.
2) raising their hands to volunteer for the CSA AND being paid with the knowledge, since you say they were so well informed*, that if the South lost, they would be freed anyway and, if the South won, they'd expect some "return on their investment."

But my larger point is that enslaved Africans did not have freedom of movement to exercise what might have been their "true" choice.

Answers?

 O0

*I will, however, remind you that most of the enslaved in Texas did not learn of Emancipation until much later.

O0
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: Ken on March 21, 2014, 03:59:58 AM
tHIS IS  from an article in civil war gazette  -- entitled "Did Blacks fight in combat for the Confederacy?"


1. The majority of black of Confederates who actually fought were essentially with the army as servants or personal attendants for officers. This was especially true in the initial part of the war (1861-62), I have read occasionally about these slaves/servants taking up a rifle and fighting in ranks with their master. Otherwise, various mulattoes or persons with light complexions may have been directly enrolled in the army. SINCE IT WAS AGAINST C.S.A. policy to enlist blacks in the fighting army (until the very last in1865), I doubt if formal records will show the extent of black combat participation."


2. Civil War Historian Professor James Mc Phesrson who won a Pultizer Prize for a civil war book wrote that of the more than25,000 soldiers letters he has personally read over the years, he has only found evidence that perhaps 6-12 confederate soldiers were even mentioned.


3. Professor and Civil War historian-author steven woodsworth said--" It would be hard to prove that absolutely zero blacks fought in the confederate army, but I think it must have approached that level:.



NOW PERTAINING TO Y'S ARTICLE-- THE TIMES IS A CONSERVATIVE WASHINGTON PAPER WHOSE EDITOR ONCE SAID THAT HE CONSIDERS ETHIOPIANS WHITE.  IT IS NOW CALLED THE WASHINGTON EXAMINER

IF THE AUTHOR OF Y ARTICLE IS WALTER WILLIAMS AND I MAY BE MISTAKEN BUT HE IS AN ECONOMIST AT GEORGE MASON UNIVERISITY AND NOT A CIVIL WAR HISTORIAN.   HE IS ALSO A CONSERVATIVE SPOKESMAN.
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: Bison66 on March 23, 2014, 12:10:52 PM
I am curious to know if any black confederate units fought directly against a black union unit? 


Let's first find the answer to the issue that Ken raised:  Did Blacks in the Army of the CSA actually FIGHT?

PERHAPS, y04 has some links for that.  He seems to have a special interest.
O0

EL JAY,

From what has been posted so far, it DOES SEEM THAT THERE WERE NO BLACK UNITS IN THE CONFEDERATE ARMY.

That kind of information would be hard to hide and, for sure, the Neo-Confederates, in their never ending effort to justify the human trafficking and terrorism of their forebears, would be shouting it from the rooftops!!!

It would have been FRONT PAGE news ALL OVER THE SOUTH!!!!  Instead, historians are left to quibble about whether there were a scattered dozen, or hundred or a thousands or so in an armed force of about half a million.

So, I feel quite and completely comfortable in saying that there were no ARMED BLACK UNITS for the CSA.

I guess the Rebs didn't trust their "loyal" nigras THAT much.

Talk about "fraggin'"!!!!

o0
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: Ken on March 23, 2014, 03:01:50 PM
Well the CSA explicitly prohibited blacks from being armed to fight--When they about changing the rules the war had already been lost.  Most of these stories of blacks fighting for the south is all right wing propaganda-- you think If you rape someones wife and daughter, whipped their husbands- then are YOU going to give that man a GUN??-- what do you think the majority of those armed would do - fight the North or turn the gun on you.
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: Bison66 on March 23, 2014, 05:32:54 PM
True, Ken, for most!!

But we do know for sure that there are always a few brainwashed and confused individuals who miscomprehend the situation and who "fight" against their own interests.

There's a fascinating story of the Franklin Riot (Tenn) just after the Civil War.  There were Black and white RADICALS advocating that former Confederates not be given too much leeway to regain power AND there were white and Black CONSERVATIVES (these were the labels applied to them in the Official Report of the incident, not by me) who opposed the Radicals.

The Radicals did a series of marches in the Franklin area.  During (the last?) one, they were confronted in the streets by the Conservatives led by TWO BLACK MEN (or were they pushed up front?).  Shots rang out and two men were killed and several were wounded.  Both sides were armed but disagreed about who shot first.

It turns out that my Great Grandmother was a witness and gave a deposition to the investigators.  I am HOPING that she was on the Radical's side, but I have my doubts. 

Visiting Franklin next month to see what more I can find out.

O0
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: y04185 on March 23, 2014, 06:13:48 PM
For the most part from what I've read lately Blacks nor slaves were allowed to serve in combat arms for the CSA until 1865.  By then it was too late.  One motivating factor for a slave to fight for the confederacy would have been money.  The CSA reportedly would have paid Blacks $30 a month.  Blacks in the Union were paid $10 or $13 a month.  A slave could have served for less time in the CSA to purchase his freedom. 

I remember reading, if my memory is correct, that Robert E. Lee wanted Blacks to serve early in the war.  The CSA was against it.  Even when they were getting whipped on the battlefield by Blacks from the North. 

I doubt anyone will ever be able to reasonable say that Blacks fought for the CSA in number compared to the north.  When the CSA did allow Blacks into the Army it was way too late.  By the time they would have been trained for battle the war was over. 
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: Bison66 on March 23, 2014, 06:54:03 PM
There is NO WAY any honest person could say that the number of Blacks in the CSA Army was even close at all to the numbers fighting for the Union.

y04, I see you still have no response to my inquiry from almost 4 years ago in this thread to "clarify" what you termed a "choice" of which side to "fight" on.  I do, of course, realize that you don't because it was muddled thinking that led you to say that enslaved folks had a "choice" in the first place.

O0
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: CIAA-FAN on March 24, 2014, 02:22:13 PM
THESE TWO BOOKS WILL GIVE YOU INTERESTING FIRST HAND PERSPECTIVE AND ANSWERS TO THE QUESTION.  THE FIRST ONE I READ AND THE SECOND I HAVE READ PARTS OF:

"FORGOTTEN CONFEDERATES: AN ANTHOLOGY ABOUT BLACK SOUTHERNERS" - COMPILED AND EDITED BY CHARLES KELLY BARROW, J.H. SEGARS AND R.B.ROSENBURG, JOURNAL OF CONFEDERATE HISTORY SERIES, VOL, XIV - 1995

BLACK SOUTHERNERS IN GRAY: ESSAYS ON AFRO-AMERICANS IN CONFEDERATE ARMIES - BY: ANDREW CHANDLER BATTAILE, ERVIN L. JORDAN, ARTHUR W. BERGERON, JR, RICHARD ROLLINS, THOMAS Y. CARTWRIGHT AND RUDOLF YOUNG; EDITED BY RICHARD ROLLINS - RANK AND FILE PUBLICATIONS - 1994

BOTH CONTAIN A GREAT SERIES OF NARRATIVES AND FIRST HAND ACCOUNTS ABOUT A LITTLE KNOWN OR DISCUSSED ASPECT OF AMERICAN HISTORY.  THE ANSWERS TO THE BASIC QUESTIONS ARE ENLIGHTENING AND CONTRARY TO POPULAR MISCONCEPTIONS, ON THE TOPIC. 
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: CIAA-FAN on March 24, 2014, 02:23:34 PM
There is NO WAY any honest person could say that the number of Blacks in the CSA Army was even close at all to the numbers fighting for the Union.

y04, I see you still have no response to my inquiry from almost 4 years ago in this thread to "clarify" what you termed a "choice" of which side to "fight" on.  I do, of course, realize that you don't because it was muddled thinking that led you to say that enslaved folks had a "choice" in the first place.

O0

YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY CORRECT AND THERE IS WRITTEN EVIDENCE TO SUBSTANTIATE YOUR ASSERTION.  THE TOTAL NUMBER WAS LESS THAN 5,000.
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: MyTeVyKn on March 24, 2014, 02:46:04 PM
I will do a cross reference just in case the books I have are already listed.  But, hope to have them posted soon.  I have become fascinated with reading and studying the behaviors of blacks through various periods of our history.
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: Bison66 on March 24, 2014, 03:06:20 PM
THESE TWO BOOKS WILL GIVE YOU INTERESTING FIRST HAND PERSPECTIVE AND ANSWERS TO THE QUESTION.  THE FIRST ONE I READ AND THE SECOND I HAVE READ PARTS OF:

"FORGOTTEN CONFEDERATES: AN ANTHOLOGY ABOUT BLACK SOUTHERNERS" - COMPILED AND EDITED BY CHARLES KELLY BARROW, J.H. SEGARS AND R.B.ROSENBURG, JOURNAL OF CONFEDERATE HISTORY SERIES, VOL, XIV - 1995

BLACK SOUTHERNERS IN GRAY: ESSAYS ON AFRO-AMERICANS IN CONFEDERATE ARMIES - BY: ANDREW CHANDLER BATTAILE, ERVIN L. JORDAN, ARTHUR W. BERGERON, JR, RICHARD ROLLINS, THOMAS Y. CARTWRIGHT AND RUDOLF YOUNG; EDITED BY RICHARD ROLLINS - RANK AND FILE PUBLICATIONS - 1994

BOTH CONTAIN A GREAT SERIES OF NARRATIVES AND FIRST HAND ACCOUNTS ABOUT A LITTLE KNOWN OR DISCUSSED ASPECT OF AMERICAN HISTORY.  THE ANSWERS TO THE BASIC QUESTIONS ARE ENLIGHTENING AND CONTRARY TO POPULAR MISCONCEPTIONS, ON THE TOPIC. 


FAN,

I respectfully request that you share with the Board ANY AND ALL information from what you read in those volumes which MIGHT support either:
- the idea that enslaved Africans in the South had a "true choice" (see my note to y04) to join either army
OR
- the claim that the number of Africans/Blacks in the CSA Army was more than a mere fraction of Blacks/Africans in the Union Army
OR
- that there were Black/African units in the CSA Army
OR
- that there were a significant number of ARMED Blacks in the CSA Army.

Any or all such information will be greatly appreciated by this poster and, I am sure, others.

O0
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: y04185 on March 24, 2014, 03:17:46 PM
There is NO WAY any honest person could say that the number of Blacks in the CSA Army was even close at all to the numbers fighting for the Union.

y04, I see you still have no response to my inquiry from almost 4 years ago in this thread to "clarify" what you termed a "choice" of which side to "fight" on.  I do, of course, realize that you don't because it was muddled thinking that led you to say that enslaved folks had a "choice" in the first place.

O0

The choice was crystal clear.  He had a choice of fighting for the Union for 10 dollars a month or the south for 30.  That was the choice. 
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: CIAA-FAN on March 24, 2014, 06:08:50 PM
THESE TWO BOOKS WILL GIVE YOU INTERESTING FIRST HAND PERSPECTIVE AND ANSWERS TO THE QUESTION.  THE FIRST ONE I READ AND THE SECOND I HAVE READ PARTS OF:

"FORGOTTEN CONFEDERATES: AN ANTHOLOGY ABOUT BLACK SOUTHERNERS" - COMPILED AND EDITED BY CHARLES KELLY BARROW, J.H. SEGARS AND R.B.ROSENBURG, JOURNAL OF CONFEDERATE HISTORY SERIES, VOL, XIV - 1995

BLACK SOUTHERNERS IN GRAY: ESSAYS ON AFRO-AMERICANS IN CONFEDERATE ARMIES - BY: ANDREW CHANDLER BATTAILE, ERVIN L. JORDAN, ARTHUR W. BERGERON, JR, RICHARD ROLLINS, THOMAS Y. CARTWRIGHT AND RUDOLF YOUNG; EDITED BY RICHARD ROLLINS - RANK AND FILE PUBLICATIONS - 1994

BOTH CONTAIN A GREAT SERIES OF NARRATIVES AND FIRST HAND ACCOUNTS ABOUT A LITTLE KNOWN OR DISCUSSED ASPECT OF AMERICAN HISTORY.  THE ANSWERS TO THE BASIC QUESTIONS ARE ENLIGHTENING AND CONTRARY TO POPULAR MISCONCEPTIONS, ON THE TOPIC.  


FAN,

I respectfully request that you share with the Board ANY AND ALL information from what you read in those volumes which MIGHT support either:
- the idea that enslaved Africans in the South had a "true choice" (see my note to y04) to join either army
OR
- the claim that the number of Africans/Blacks in the CSA Army was more than a mere fraction of Blacks/Africans in the Union Army
OR
- that there were Black/African units in the CSA Army
OR
- that there were a significant number of ARMED Blacks in the CSA Army.

Any or all such information will be greatly appreciated by this poster and, I am sure, others.

O0

AS I HAVE STATED I AM A CIVIL WAR BUFF AND HAVE A LOT OF BOOKS ON THE SUBJECT, IN MY PERSONAL LIBRARY.  HAVE BEEN INTERESTED IN THIS TOPIC FOR OVER 30 YRS, ESPECIALLY AFTER I FOUND OUT PURELY BY ACCIDENT THAT AN ANCESTOR OF MINE WAS IN THE UNION ARMY's U.S. COLORED TROOPS (USCT) STATIONED NEAR WASHINGTON, DC, DURING THE CIVIL WAR; (1863-1864).  I HAVE SOME MORE TITLES AT HOME THAT I WILL POST HERE LATER TONIGHT, FOR THE EDIFICATION AND EDUCATION OF ALL.  TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTIONS ABOVE WILL TAKE SOME TIME AND EFFORT TO QUOTE SPECIFC SECTIONS AND PARAGRAPHS,  BUT I WILL GIVE YOU SUMMARY RESPONSES, BASED ON WHAT I HAVE PERSONALLY READ.  

- the idea that enslaved Africans in the South had a "true choice" (see my note to y04) to join either army - THEY HAD NO TRUE CHOICE.  MOST WERE FORCED,  HOWEVER SOME ACTUALLY VOLUNTEERED OUT OF A TRUE SENSE OF PERVERTED LOYALTY AND A REAL DESIRE TO PROTECT "THEIR" HOMELAND FROM INVADING YANKEES.

OR
- the claim that the number of Africans/Blacks in the CSA Army was more than a mere fraction of Blacks/Africans in the Union Army

I READ NO EVIDENCE THAT THAT THE NUMBER OF BLACKS IN THE CONFEDERATE ARMY EVER NUMBERED MORE THAN 5,000.  HOWEVER, THERE IS DOCUMENT PROOF THAT THE NUMBER OF BLACKS SERVING IN THE UNION ARMY AND NAVY WAS JUST OVER 200,000 OR APPROXIMATELY 20% OF THE ENTIRE UNION FORCES IN THE FIELD DURING THE ENTIRE CONFLICT.

OR
- that there were Black/African units in the CSA Army - THERE IS NO KNOWN DOCUMENTED EVIDENCE OF ALL-BLACK/AFRICAN UNITS IN THE CSA.   ALL BLACK UNITS WERE LED BY WHITE OFFICERS AND NON-COMMISSIONED OFFICERS.

OR
- that there were a significant number of ARMED Blacks in the CSA Army.  -- THERE WERE 3 DOCUMENTED ARMED BLACK CSA UNITS, LED BY WHITE OFFICERS AND THE BLACKS WERE REQUIRED TO TURNOVER THEIR WEAPONS TO WHITE OFFICERS WHEN NOT ENGAGED IN COMBAT OPERATION.  THE LOGISTICS OF THAT NON-SENSE IF AN ATTACK WERE IMMINENT OR AN UNEXPECTED ATTACK OCCURRED BORDERS ON THE INANE AND HILARIOUS.  I CAN JUST IMAGINE THIS CONVERSATION BETWEEN BLACK CSA SOLDIER AND WHITE CSA OFFICER AT 3:00 AM, "MASSA, WAKE UP! I HEARED DEM YANKEES IS A-COMING CAN I HAS MY GUN NOW?".   :lmao:

MOST BLACK IN THE CSA WERE IN LABOR AND ENGINEER UNITS CONSTRUCTING RAMPARTS, FORTS, BUILDING ROAD BARRIERS, OR ACTING AS STEVEDORES, NON-ARMED PICKETS, FORCED LABORERS, PATROLLERS, SPIES OR ASSIGNED TO STEAL UNION SUPPLIES.  TOWARDS THE END OF THE CONFLICT WHEN THE SOUTH FULLY REALIZED THE END WAS NEAR,  SOME CSA GENERALS WANTED TO FORM ALL BLACK UNITS LED BY THEIR BEST "DARKIES" (AUTHORS AND NOT MY WORDS).   JEFFERSON DAVIS IS SUSPOSED TO HAVE SERIOUSLY CONSIDERED THIS OPTION BUT THE WAR ENDED WITH LEE'S SURRENDER IN APRIL 1865, BEFORE HE COULD ACT.  EARLIER SOME CSA GENERALS WERE ACTUALLY RELIEVED OF COMMAND FOR PROPOSING THE SAME THINGS IN 1863.  MANY BLACKS BELIEVED BECAUSE OF PREVAILING SOUTHERN PROPOGANDA THAT YANKEES WERE LESS THAT HUMAN AND THAT THEIR CHANCES WERE BETTER SERVED WITH A WHITE MAN THEY KNEW AS OPPOSED TO WHITE MEN THEY DIDN'T KNOW!  REMEBER, BY THE CIVIL WAR MOST BLACKS HAD BEEN EFFECTIVELY BEEN SEPARATED FROM MOST OF THEIR PRIDE, HERITAGE AND CUSTOMS FROM AFRICA.  THEY THOUGHT OF THEMSELVES AS " 'MERICANS" AND NOT AFRICANS.   EVEN THOUGH MOST HAD NO REAL CONCEPT OF WHAT AMERICAN CITIZENSHIP ACTUALLY ENTAILED.   I LEARNED FROM READING THESE BOOKS THAT IT IS VERY DIFFICULT FOR BLACKS TODAY WITH 20TH CENTURY PERSPECTIVES AND SENSIBILITIES TO CRITCALLY AND IMPARTIALLY JUDGE THE MOTIVATIONS OF OUR ANCESTORS WITH THEIR 19TH CENTURY PERSPECTIVES OF WHAT WAS OR WAS NOT ACTUALLY ATTAINABLE.     WHENEVER, I HEAR BLACKS TODAY SAY "MAN IF I HAD BEEN A SLAVE BACK THEN, I WOULD HAVE KICKED MASSA'S a**  OR DID THIS, THAT AND THE OTHER...."   I JUST SMILE TO MYSELF
AT ALL THE FALSE BRAVADO.

Any or all such information will be greatly appreciated by this poster and, I am sure, others.
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: CIAA-FAN on March 24, 2014, 07:53:41 PM
"BISON66" - HERE ARE SOME OF MY OTHER FAVORITE VOLUMES I HAVE IN MY PERSONAL COLLECTION.  I HAVE OTHERS COLLECTED OVER THE YEARS BUT I AM NOT GOING OUT TO THE GARAGE TO DIG THEM OUT.  A FEW WEEKS AGO I RAN INTO ONE OF MY FORMER COMPANY COMMANDERS FROM BACK WHEN I WAS BATTALION COMMANDER, YEARS BACK.  HE HAD JUST RETIRED AND WAS NOW LIVING IN HUNTSVILLE, AL.   OVER TOO MANY SCOTCHES, WE GOT INTO A HEATED DEBATE ABOUT BLACKS IN THE CIVIL WAR.  HE WAS/IS ALSO A FAN OF THE TOPIC.  I ENDED UP GETTING OUT THE "FORGOTTEN CONFEDERATES" VOLUME TO PROVE MY POINT.  THEN OVER THE NEXT FEW DAYS I ENDED UP RE-READING THE ENTIRE VOLUME!.

"FORGED IN BATTLE: THE CIVIL WAR ALLIANCE OF BLACK SOLDIERS AND WHITE OFFICERS" - JOSEPH T. GLATTHAAR, THE FREE PRESS  COLLIER MACMILLAN, 1990

"THE SABLE ARM: BLACK TROOPS IN  THE UNION ARMY (1861-1865)" - DUDLEY TAYLOR CORNISH, UNIVERSITY PRESS OF KANSAS, 1987.  (MR. CORNISH WAS A PROFESSOR OF AFRICAN-AMERICAN HISTORY AT I BELIEVE NORFOLK STATE UNIVERSITY

"A BRAVE BLACK REGIMENT: THE HISTORY OF THE 54TH MASSACHUSETTS, 1863-1865" - LUIS F. EMILLO, DA CAPO PRESS, NEW YORK, 1995 (FIRST PUBLISHED IN 1984)

"THE NEGRO IN THE CIVIL WAR" - DR. BENJAMIN QUARLES (PROFESSOR EMERITUS OF THEN MORGAN STATE COLLEGE) DA CAPO PRESS, 1953 --- (I TOOK TWO HISTORY COURSES TAUGHT BY DR. QUARLES WHILE A MORGAN STATE UNDERGRAD.  I LOVED AND RESPECTED THIS MAN.  HE IS PERHAPS MOST RESPONSIBLE FOR ME MAJORING IN POLITICAL SCIENCE / PRE-LAW AND WAS INSTRUMENTAL IN THE POLITICAL BELIEFS I HOLD TODAY.  MAY HE REST IN PEACE.)

"ARMY LIFE IN A BLACK REGIMENT" - THOMAS WENTWORTH HIGGINSON, THE PENGUIN GROUP, 1997

"A DIFFERENT STORY" - A BLACK HISTORY OF FREDERICKSBURG, STAFFORD AND SPOTSYLVANIA, VIRGINIA" - RUTH CODER FITZGERALD - UNICORN PRESS, 1979

"CIVIL WAR CURIOSTIES" - WEBB GARRISON, FALL RIVER PRESS, 1994



 
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: CIAA-FAN on March 25, 2014, 01:54:45 PM
ANY MORE RESPONSES?
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: Bison66 on April 19, 2014, 11:41:33 PM
There is NO WAY any honest person could say that the number of Blacks in the CSA Army was even close at all to the numbers fighting for the Union.

y04, I see you still have no response to my inquiry from almost 4 years ago in this thread to "clarify" what you termed a "choice" of which side to "fight" on.  I do, of course, realize that you don't because it was muddled thinking that led you to say that enslaved folks had a "choice" in the first place.

O0

The choice was crystal clear.  He had a choice of fighting for the Union for 10 dollars a month or the south for 30.  That was the choice. 
y04,

I know that you INSIST on not being taken seriously, but please make an exception so that you can claim at least ONE INSTANCE where you were actually able to back up what you were saying with logic and/or facts.

Here is what I originally asked you about "the choice" which you assert enslaved Blacks in the South had:

Quote
"In what context are you speaking when you say, " the slave was getting off the plantation.  he had a choice.  go to the union side for ten dollars a month or go to the confederate side for thirty dollars a month." ??

"Choice"?  As in "freedom" of movement?  You speak as if slaves were already freed under the CSA."

More concretely, let me say that the "choice" you mention is between:
1) running away (risking severe punishment, including maiming, and leaving children and loved ones), making way through somewhat unknown territory during war time with troops on patrol, sneaking through Confederate Army lines to get to Union lines without knowing for sure they could get in the Army to be paid (many Blacks were not accepted).
vs.
2) raising their hands to volunteer for the CSA AND being paid with the knowledge, since you say they were so well informed*, that if the South lost, they would be freed anyway and, if the South won, they'd expect some "return on their investment."

But my larger point is that enslaved Africans did not have freedom of movement to exercise what might have been their "true" choice.

Answers?

You couldn't explain that more than 4 years ago and you can't explain it now.  
Can you?

O0
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: Bison66 on April 28, 2014, 12:56:06 PM
For y04,

TICK TOCK, TICK TOCK......

(http://www.clker.com/cliparts/7/5/0/8/11970930642131497005BenBois_Clock.svg.med.png)

Quote
You couldn't explain that more than 4 years ago and you can't explain it now. 


Yeah,...that's exactly what I thought.

 :lmao:
O0
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: Bison66 on April 28, 2014, 01:47:05 PM
FAN,

THANK YOU!!!

THANK YOU!!!

THANK YOU!!!

THANK YOU!!!

HALL OF FAME WORTHY!!!!!

THESE TWO BOOKS WILL GIVE YOU INTERESTING FIRST HAND PERSPECTIVE AND ANSWERS TO THE QUESTION.  THE FIRST ONE I READ AND THE SECOND I HAVE READ PARTS OF:

"FORGOTTEN CONFEDERATES: AN ANTHOLOGY ABOUT BLACK SOUTHERNERS" - COMPILED AND EDITED BY CHARLES KELLY BARROW, J.H. SEGARS AND R.B.ROSENBURG, JOURNAL OF CONFEDERATE HISTORY SERIES, VOL, XIV - 1995

BLACK SOUTHERNERS IN GRAY: ESSAYS ON AFRO-AMERICANS IN CONFEDERATE ARMIES - BY: ANDREW CHANDLER BATTAILE, ERVIN L. JORDAN, ARTHUR W. BERGERON, JR, RICHARD ROLLINS, THOMAS Y. CARTWRIGHT AND RUDOLF YOUNG; EDITED BY RICHARD ROLLINS - RANK AND FILE PUBLICATIONS - 1994

BOTH CONTAIN A GREAT SERIES OF NARRATIVES AND FIRST HAND ACCOUNTS ABOUT A LITTLE KNOWN OR DISCUSSED ASPECT OF AMERICAN HISTORY.  THE ANSWERS TO THE BASIC QUESTIONS ARE ENLIGHTENING AND CONTRARY TO POPULAR MISCONCEPTIONS, ON THE TOPIC.  


FAN,

I respectfully request that you share with the Board ANY AND ALL information from what you read in those volumes which MIGHT support either:
- the idea that enslaved Africans in the South had a "true choice" (see my note to y04) to join either army
OR
- the claim that the number of Africans/Blacks in the CSA Army was more than a mere fraction of Blacks/Africans in the Union Army
OR
- that there were Black/African units in the CSA Army
OR
- that there were a significant number of ARMED Blacks in the CSA Army.

Any or all such information will be greatly appreciated by this poster and, I am sure, others.

O0

AS I HAVE STATED I AM A CIVIL WAR BUFF AND HAVE A LOT OF BOOKS ON THE SUBJECT, IN MY PERSONAL LIBRARY.  HAVE BEEN INTERESTED IN THIS TOPIC FOR OVER 30 YRS, ESPECIALLY AFTER I FOUND OUT PURELY BY ACCIDENT THAT AN ANCESTOR OF MINE WAS IN THE UNION ARMY's U.S. COLORED TROOPS (USCT) STATIONED NEAR WASHINGTON, DC, DURING THE CIVIL WAR; (1863-1864).  I HAVE SOME MORE TITLES AT HOME THAT I WILL POST HERE LATER TONIGHT, FOR THE EDIFICATION AND EDUCATION OF ALL.  TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTIONS ABOVE WILL TAKE SOME TIME AND EFFORT TO QUOTE SPECIFC SECTIONS AND PARAGRAPHS,  BUT I WILL GIVE YOU SUMMARY RESPONSES, BASED ON WHAT I HAVE PERSONALLY READ.  

- the idea that enslaved Africans in the South had a "true choice" (see my note to y04) to join either army - THEY HAD NO TRUE CHOICE.  MOST WERE FORCED,  HOWEVER SOME ACTUALLY VOLUNTEERED OUT OF A TRUE SENSE OF PERVERTED LOYALTY AND A REAL DESIRE TO PROTECT "THEIR" HOMELAND FROM INVADING YANKEES.

OR
- the claim that the number of Africans/Blacks in the CSA Army was more than a mere fraction of Blacks/Africans in the Union Army

I READ NO EVIDENCE THAT THAT THE NUMBER OF BLACKS IN THE CONFEDERATE ARMY EVER NUMBERED MORE THAN 5,000.  HOWEVER, THERE IS DOCUMENT PROOF THAT THE NUMBER OF BLACKS SERVING IN THE UNION ARMY AND NAVY WAS JUST OVER 200,000 OR APPROXIMATELY 20% OF THE ENTIRE UNION FORCES IN THE FIELD DURING THE ENTIRE CONFLICT.

OR
- that there were Black/African units in the CSA Army - THERE IS NO KNOWN DOCUMENTED EVIDENCE OF ALL-BLACK/AFRICAN UNITS IN THE CSA.   ALL BLACK UNITS WERE LED BY WHITE OFFICERS AND NON-COMMISSIONED OFFICERS.

OR
- that there were a significant number of ARMED Blacks in the CSA Army.  -- THERE WERE 3 DOCUMENTED ARMED BLACK CSA UNITS, LED BY WHITE OFFICERS AND THE BLACKS WERE REQUIRED TO TURNOVER THEIR WEAPONS TO WHITE OFFICERS WHEN NOT ENGAGED IN COMBAT OPERATION.  THE LOGISTICS OF THAT NON-SENSE IF AN ATTACK WERE IMMINENT OR AN UNEXPECTED ATTACK OCCURRED BORDERS ON THE INANE AND HILARIOUS.  I CAN JUST IMAGINE THIS CONVERSATION BETWEEN BLACK CSA SOLDIER AND WHITE CSA OFFICER AT 3:00 AM, "MASSA, WAKE UP! I HEARED DEM YANKEES IS A-COMING CAN I HAS MY GUN NOW?".   :lmao:

MOST BLACK IN THE CSA WERE IN LABOR AND ENGINEER UNITS CONSTRUCTING RAMPARTS, FORTS, BUILDING ROAD BARRIERS, OR ACTING AS STEVEDORES, NON-ARMED PICKETS, FORCED LABORERS, PATROLLERS, SPIES OR ASSIGNED TO STEAL UNION SUPPLIES.  TOWARDS THE END OF THE CONFLICT WHEN THE SOUTH FULLY REALIZED THE END WAS NEAR,  SOME CSA GENERALS WANTED TO FORM ALL BLACK UNITS LED BY THEIR BEST "DARKIES" (AUTHORS AND NOT MY WORDS).   JEFFERSON DAVIS IS SUSPOSED TO HAVE SERIOUSLY CONSIDERED THIS OPTION BUT THE WAR ENDED WITH LEE'S SURRENDER IN APRIL 1865, BEFORE HE COULD ACT.  EARLIER SOME CSA GENERALS WERE ACTUALLY RELIEVED OF COMMAND FOR PROPOSING THE SAME THINGS IN 1863.  MANY BLACKS BELIEVED BECAUSE OF PREVAILING SOUTHERN PROPOGANDA THAT YANKEES WERE LESS THAT HUMAN AND THAT THEIR CHANCES WERE BETTER SERVED WITH A WHITE MAN THEY KNEW AS OPPOSED TO WHITE MEN THEY DIDN'T KNOW!  REMEBER, BY THE CIVIL WAR MOST BLACKS HAD BEEN EFFECTIVELY BEEN SEPARATED FROM MOST OF THEIR PRIDE, HERITAGE AND CUSTOMS FROM AFRICA.  THEY THOUGHT OF THEMSELVES AS " 'MERICANS" AND NOT AFRICANS.   EVEN THOUGH MOST HAD NO REAL CONCEPT OF WHAT AMERICAN CITIZENSHIP ACTUALLY ENTAILED.   I LEARNED FROM READING THESE BOOKS THAT IT IS VERY DIFFICULT FOR BLACKS TODAY WITH 20TH CENTURY PERSPECTIVES AND SENSIBILITIES TO CRITCALLY AND IMPARTIALLY JUDGE THE MOTIVATIONS OF OUR ANCESTORS WITH THEIR 19TH CENTURY PERSPECTIVES OF WHAT WAS OR WAS NOT ACTUALLY ATTAINABLE.     WHENEVER, I HEAR BLACKS TODAY SAY "MAN IF I HAD BEEN A SLAVE BACK THEN, I WOULD HAVE KICKED MASSA'S a**  OR DID THIS, THAT AND THE OTHER...."   I JUST SMILE TO MYSELF
AT ALL THE FALSE BRAVADO.

Any or all such information will be greatly appreciated by this poster and, I am sure, others.

FAN,

This response on the previous page along with the other one in which you shared some book titles ARE VERY MUCH APPRECIATED!!!

Your knowledge of the subject is obviously deep as well as broad.  I missed it (been traveling and working on other projects, so I am just coming back to read your posts in depth) and am hoping that other O-dan posters will read the entirety of both of your posts.

VERY INFORMATIVE!!!!!

THANK YOU!!!

THANK YOU!!!

O0
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: Bison66 on May 11, 2014, 01:32:17 AM
ONCE AGAIN, CIAA FAN:

THANK YOU VERY MUCH for your earlier posts in this thread!!!!


Here follows a comprehensive look at the alleged fighting of Blacks for the Confederacy, including exposing outright attempts to distort the historical record as part of a revisionist effort to justify or ameliorate the Confederacy's reputation,

Quote
A great deal of the misinformation about this subject can be traced to the United Daughters of the Confederacy and Sons of Confederate Veterans.  

Motives are pretty clear.

Quote
A few of you have asked if I could put together an overview of the many posts that I’ve done on the subject of black Confederates.  This is a start and it’s something that I will come back to to update and expand.  This will hopefully answer common questions that new readers have about my own position on this subject as well as provide a reliable list of resources for further reading.  You can find a link to this post in the navigation menu at the top of the page.

Overview
Regular readers of this blog are all too familiar with the frequency of posts on the hot topic of black Confederates.  It is safe to say that the largest number of posts on this blog have been devoted to the subject and collectively constitute what I hope is a helpful resource for those who are trying to wade through the morass that defines this divisive topic and public debate.  With so much attention focused on this subject it may be difficult for readers to know where to begin.  This page is meant to serve as a road map to help readers to better understand the evolution of my own thought about this subject as well as advice on where to go for credible information and what to avoid.  I should point out that my writing on this subject is not meant or intended as an authoritative or final word on the subject.  I’ve used this blog to ask questions and to offer some of my own ideas about various aspects of the subject and on how others have approached the subject.

Content
You will find a wide range of posts on this issue, but all of them revolve around a basic assumption that this subject is part of a broader discussion of slavery and race relations during the Civil War.  Most of the posts on this site can be found under a category heading, titled, “black Confederates.” [Keep in mind that you are reading them in the reverse order in which they were published.]  I suggest that you begin with my two earliest posts on the subject in which I begin to sketch out my own interest in the subject in response to the publication of Bruce Levine’s book, Confederate Emancipation [Part 1 and Part 2 and here].  One of the biggest problems is the lack of any consensus on language and how to describe the presence of free and enslaved blacks in Confederate armies.  In my view we must begin by assuming that blacks were not soldiers based both on the refusal on the part of the Confederate government as well as the almost complete lack of wartime evidence (enlistment papers/muster rolls, etc.)
http://cwmemory.com/2010/08/31/black-confederate-resources/

This historian blogger cites a fairly new book which attempts to verify from original records whether or not Blacks fought for the CSA.  (Once again, y04's thread title seems inaccurate, but it is likely THIS TIME an honest mistake because of all the MISinformation being circulated.)
Bruce Levine’s Confederate Emancipation: Southern Plans to Free and Arm Slaves During the Civil War
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51jLCOuPCvL._SY344_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)

Quote
Bruce Levine does two things in his article, “In Search of a Usable Past: Neo-Confederates and Black Confederates” which is included in the edited volume Slavery and Public History.  (See two earlier posts on this book – here and here.)  First, he sketches the reasons behind the continued claims of Black Confederates and later provides a short overview of the actual debate that took place in the Confederacy (from the beginning of the war) over whether to recruit blacks into the army.  Those interested in a more complete account of the actual debate should read Confederate Emancipation.

What I like about the structure of Levine’s article is his decision not to take on Neo-Confederate claims of Black Confederates directly.  And the reason is because it is unproductive to do so.  Consider the standard approach to this debate.  Individual stories are cited as evidence of a certain conclusion, but there is almost always no critical discussion of the origin of the source or whether the account really implies only one conclusion.
http://cwmemory.com/2006/06/08/blacks-in-gray-or-enough-is-enough/

Here is the "summary" of the book from the Amazon site:
Quote
In early 1864, as the Confederate Army of Tennessee licked its wounds after being routed at the Battle of Chattanooga, Major-General Patrick Cleburne (the "Stonewall of the West") proposed that "the most courageous of our slaves" be trained as soldiers and that "every slave in the South who shall remain true to the Confederacy in this war" be freed.
In Confederate Emancipation, Bruce Levine looks closely at such Confederate plans to arm and free slaves. He shows that within a year of Cleburne's proposal, which was initially rejected out of hand, Jefferson Davis, Judah P. Benjamin, and Robert E. Lee had all reached the same conclusions. At that point, the idea was debated widely in newspapers and drawing rooms across the South, as more and more slaves fled to Union lines and fought in the ranks of the Union army. Eventually, the soldiers of Lee's army voted on the proposal, and the Confederate government actually enacted a version of it in March. The Army issued the necessary orders just two weeks before Appomattox, too late to affect the course of the war. Throughout the book, Levine captures the voices of blacks and whites, wealthy planters and poor farmers, soldiers and officers, and newspaper editors and politicians from all across the South. In the process, he sheds light on such hot-button topics as what the Confederacy was fighting for, whether black southerners were willing to fight in large numbers in defense of the South, and what this episode foretold about life and politics in the post-war South.
Confederate Emancipation offers an engaging and illuminating account of a fascinating and politically charged idea, setting it firmly and vividly in the context of the Civil War and the part played in it by the issue of slavery and the actions of the slaves themselves.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0195147626/104-4501786-2985545?v=glance&n=283155

Interesting stuff.

From the evidence and the reported LACK OF EVIDENCE, IMO it is safe to conclude that Blacks did NOT FIGHT for the CSA in any appreciable numbers.

So, the title of THIS thread is pretty much MOOT!!
O0
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: y04185 on May 11, 2014, 07:50:16 AM
B66, how much was the CSA paying these slaves vs what they would have made fighting for the Union?  Also, why would they not fight for the CSA if it would make them free?

You are looking at a 19th century problem with 21st century logic.  It won't work.  You have to put yourself in the 19th century.

Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: Bison66 on May 11, 2014, 09:43:02 PM
Dude,

Any logic I might use is better than NO LOGIC AT ALL.

You REFUSE to address the question I asked you years ago and STILL REFUSE to address it.

You say:
Quote
The choice was crystal clear.  He had a choice of fighting for the Union for 10 dollars a month or the south for 30.  That was the choice.
 

But you CANNOT LOGICALLY AND FACTUALLY address what I put to you:
Quote
y04,

I know that you INSIST on not being taken seriously, but please make an exception so that you can claim at least ONE INSTANCE where you were actually able to back up what you were saying with logic and/or facts.

Here is what I originally asked you about "the choice" which you assert enslaved Blacks in the South had:

Quote
"In what context are you speaking when you say, " the slave was getting off the plantation.  he had a choice.  go to the union side for ten dollars a month or go to the confederate side for thirty dollars a month." ??

"Choice"?  As in "freedom" of movement?  You speak as if slaves were already freed under the CSA."


More concretely, let me say that the "choice" you mention is between:
1) running away (risking severe punishment, including maiming, and leaving children and loved ones), making way through somewhat unknown territory during war time with troops on patrol, sneaking through Confederate Army lines to get to Union lines without knowing for sure they could get in the Army to be paid (many Blacks were not accepted).
vs.
2) raising their hands to volunteer for the CSA AND being paid with the knowledge, since you say they were so well informed*, that if the South lost, they would be freed anyway and, if the South won, they'd expect some "return on their investment."

But my larger point is that enslaved Africans did not have freedom of movement to exercise what might have been their "true" choice.

Answers?

You couldn't explain that more than 4 years ago and you can't explain it now. 
Can you?

Each and EVERY time you ignore this most salient point, you demonstrate AGAIN to everyone reading this thread that you REFUSE TO FACE THE FACTS - as they existed in the 19th Century.

But beyond all of that, the FACTS AND LOGIC demonstrate beyond a reasonable doubt that VERY FEW (A RELATIVELY MINISCULE NUMBER) BLACKS FOUGHT for the CSA.

If the choice was so easy and clear and based on higher pay - as you seem to suggest - how come tens of thousands of our Ancestors took the more risky option of escaping and fighting for the Union?

Moreover, evidence indicates that many slaves were impressed (forced) into CSA's service (to build fortifications, etc.) WITHOUT PAY AND EVEN WITHOUT COMPENSATION TO THEIR OWNERS.

Instead of mindlessly repeating ad nauseam your COMPLETELY UNSUBSTANTIATED "point", why don't you post some evidence to support your OPINION?  (No fair using FAN's info!)
O0

Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: ncsiacfan on May 12, 2014, 01:03:32 AM
When I first read that Graves Hall, the very symbol of Morehouse College was built on the site of a cemetery for Black Confederate dead, I wrote and asked if they could document that? I had been a history major at Morehouse and taught by two past presidents of the Association for the Study of Afro American Life and History and I had never heard of this. They did not answer. I then wrote and said "if you can't document it, you should take it down". I knew that blacks served the Confederacy and I understand the circumstances. I also remember reading that towards the end of the war, the prospect of enlisting blacks in exchange for their freedom was discussed and rejected by General Robert E. Lee.
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: Bison66 on May 12, 2014, 12:40:03 PM
ncsiacfan,

GOOD WORK!!!

Did they ever respond?
Did they remove or back up the claim about the "Black Confederates"?

Are you planning to follow up?  If so, can I help?

All,

If you have an interest in this subject and, like me, wish to learn more about (and perhaps counteract) the revisionist efforts of Neo-Confederates to whitewash (pun intended) the Confederacy with distortions and outright falsehoods, PLEASE take a look at this blog:

Another Black Confederate? (Part 1 of 9)

Quote
There is something profoundly disturbing about the concerted effort on the part of the Sons of Confederate Veterans to distort the past so as to assuage their deepest insecurities. A quick perusal of their websites and the uninformed are left believing that the Confederacy was anti-slavery and that free blacks and slaves were some of their most loyal citizens.  Of course, such a view is possible only in an interpretive world that is isolated from the rest of American history and absent of any serious historical analysis.  Such is the case when it comes to their obsession with black Confederates...

...This is not about history in any shape or form.  In fact, if you were to do even a cursory study of the level of analysis that typically accompanies these stories on the Internet you will see that these people actually have no interest in historical truth...

...It’s bad enough that the SCV has little respect or even understanding of what is involved in serious historical scholarship, but what makes it worse is their lack of respect for the memory of Weary Clyburn.  Again, don’t be fooled they have no interest in telling his story or the lives of other so-called black Confederates.  In just about every case that I’ve come across there is no account from the individual in question and yet the SCV feels justified in assuming what motivated them to “serve.”  In the end all they manage to do is distort and demean their memory.
http://cwmemory.com/2008/07/15/another-black-confederate-part-1-of-9/

The following is extracted from PART TWO of that series.  I ask y04 to substitute his own name for that of "Edgerton", who is a Black Confederate Reenactor and think about his own motivations and mindset.

Quote
What I find so depressing at the root of all of this is the apparent desperation on the part of Edgerton to find a home in the past through a white narrative of the Civil War that tends to ignore both the role of slavery as its cause and the importance of emancipation followed by the continued struggles for basic civil rights by African Americans after the Civil War. It’s as if those who push the black Confederate story are only willing to acknowledge black agency if it somehow conforms in a way that supports their own []white Confederate] agenda.  From what we know tens of thousands of black slaves risked their lives by running away from their farms and plantations towards Union lines.  If that isn’t a story that begs for some kind of personal identification I don’t know what is.  Why doesn’t Edgerton march across the South with that message?  If our broader national narrative is about the struggle to realize our founding principles as contained in the Declaration of Independence than the story of African Americans has much to teach us.

Edgerton’s overly zealous identification can be seen as evidence that black Americans have a deep need to connect with the American past.  But if that past has been sharply edited and controlled by one race as a means to maintain a racial hierarchy than is it any surprise that Edgerton is willing to interact with white Southerners who, for a number of reasons, are pushing the wild conclusion that large numbers of black Southerners fought in Confederate armies?  I wonder whether he was taught about the multiple and meaningful ways in which slaves and other free black Americans influenced the outcome of the Civil War and added to our national narrative.  Is glory and admiration really only to be found in a story that is so far-fetched that only a small handful of people support?
http://cwmemory.com/2008/07/17/if-i-had-known-this-it-would-have-taken-away-the-inevitability-that-i-was-going-to-be-nothing/

This short video from the 2008 African heritage/DNA series on PBS is relevant here and I will also post it in two other relevant threads:
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/aalives/

IF NOTHING ELSE, GO TO THE 6:03 MARK TO HEAR CHRIS ROCK SAY
"IF I Had Known This
It Would Have Taken Away the Inevitability
That I Was Going to Be Nothing.”

THAT is one of the most profound, moving and succinct summations of the critical importance of a full understanding of history I have ever heard.  The ramifications of that statement on all the little boys and girls of African heritage are enormous and it reminds us of how much is to be done.

A LUTA CONTINUA!!!  THE STRUGGLE CONTINUES!!!

A LUTA TUSHINDE MBILISHAKA!!!  WE WILL WIN WITHOUT A DOUBT!!!
O0

P.S. Oldsport, do you still have NO interest in learning about your African ancestry and remain interested ONLY in your European DNA?

P.P.S.  highlander, if you are still lurking here, please reread what Chris Rock said and recall our discussion of the importance of history (which, in fairness, you claimed you understood).
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: ncsiacfan on May 12, 2014, 04:24:17 PM
Bison 66, no Morehouse did not respond to me. I would be happy for you to take this up. I stopped asking and don't know what they are doing now. I hate to say it, but I find it easier to communicate with the Chancellor of North Carolina Central University than the higher ups at Morehouse. And did I not tell you before? She has Howard in her crosshairs and you see that the enrollment is booming. But I do want black people to know about our accomplishment's. Black troops led the charge at Petersburg where they blew the great hole in the ground which you can see if you tour the battlefield. I think the union picket line ran down the back of the current Morehouse campus and there is a marker on the street corner next to Forbes Area which I think is for that.
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: Bison66 on May 12, 2014, 06:25:24 PM
Bison 66, no Morehouse did not respond to me. I would be happy for you to take this up. I stopped asking and don't know what they are doing now. I hate to say it, but I find it easier to communicate with the Chancellor of North Carolina Central University than the higher ups at Morehouse. And did I not tell you before? She has Howard in her crosshairs and you see that the enrollment is booming. But I do want black people to know about our accomplishment's. Black troops led the charge at Petersburg where they blew the great hole in the ground which you can see if you tour the battlefield. I think the union picket line ran down the back of the current Morehouse campus and there is a marker on the street corner next to Forbes Area which I think is for that.

As a retired University executive, I can tell you that most institutions are more likely to respond with action to internal constituencies than external ones, like alumni.

I would suggest the history department as your entry point along with whatever student history group exists.  This effort could become an excellent faculty-guided student research project with tremendous learning experience. 

There could be a series of seminars on related topics, but anchored in this (apparently) long held belief about a Black Confederate cemetery beneath a Morehouse building.  Finding out if it is fact or myth would be a service to historical accuracy.

2015 will be 150 years after the end of the Civil War, so it is perfect timing.

If you know an especially Afrocentric dept head (preferably) or faculty member (preferably in history), that would be a good place to start.  Sometimes a student govt leader can be a key person. 

There is also the possibility that Spelman students (faculty?) would be interested in getting involved. 

Those are my best suggestions off the top of my head and based on my experiences.

Since I have been retired for a decade, I no longer have good contacts at Morehouse or Spelman - with one exception.  I will be happy to reach out to her (at Spelman) in support of your efforts once you've initiated them.  Let me know.

O0
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: ncsiacfan on May 12, 2014, 07:38:12 PM
Bison 66, I would welcome anything you could do. I think that Morehouse needs that.
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: Bison66 on May 13, 2014, 08:47:18 PM
I can only take a support role once you, as a Morehouse Alum, get it rolling.
And that's the way it ought to be IMO.

O0
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: ncsiacfan on May 13, 2014, 09:20:45 PM
Bison 66, I will make and effort to contact them again and let you know how it goes.
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: Bison66 on May 14, 2014, 02:05:40 PM
My Man!!

Excellent!!

My son-in-law is a Morehouse Alum and I will ask him, based upon my earlier suggestions, IF he knows any faculty or student groups who fit the bill.  He graduated in the 90's, but he may still know some folks.

I'll get back to you on who, if anyone, he comes up with.

O0
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks "fight" for the confederate states of america
Post by: Bison66 on May 15, 2014, 12:55:37 PM
[ ncsiacfan and I have taken our conversation off group and will update everyone later.  If anyone wants to help, just PM us, please.]

All,

A lot has been IMPLIED by y04 about so-called "choices" and some has been said about Blacks "fighting" for the Confederacy.   From the sheer numbers, it is clear that by the tens of thousands (vs a much smaller verified number) the choice made was clear.  

Contrary to y04 's assertion
(disguised - as usual - by indefinite and ambiguous wording
so that he can later claim, if challenged, "Where did I say that?")

that MONEY formed the basis of the choices made by free and enslaved Blacks, it is abundantly clear that it was DIGNITY, BRAVERY, SELF-RESPECT and an URGENT DESIRE FOR FREEDOM that motivated those tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of men, women and children to escape to Union lines (sometimes conducting sabotage first and/or taking supplies and even horses from the plantation with them).  Check pages 125-126:  http://www.amazon.com/Wars-Desolating-Scourge-Occupation-Alabama/dp/0700618449

PHOTOS OF A FEW OF THE US COLORED TROOPS
(http://encyclopediavirginia.org/proxy.php?url=http://web3.encyclopediavirginia.org/resourcespace/filestore/userfiles/evr7554/TileGroup0/0-0-0.jpg)     (http://encyclopediavirginia.org/proxy.php?url=http://web3.encyclopediavirginia.org/resourcespace/filestore/userfiles/evr7500/TileGroup0/0-0-0.jpg)     (http://encyclopediavirginia.org/proxy.php?url=http://web3.encyclopediavirginia.org/resourcespace/filestore/userfiles/evr7503/TileGroup0/0-0-0.jpg)
http://encyclopediavirginia.org/slide_player?mets_filename=sld1769mets.xml

Many, many of those men, "contraband" as they were sometimes called, sought to serve in the Union Army.  But not all Black men were accepted, so NOT even the very large number of US Colored Troops reflects the totality of the choice by our ancestors.

(http://encyclopediavirginia.org/proxy.php?url=http://web3.encyclopediavirginia.org/resourcespace/filestore/userfiles/evr3378/TileGroup0/0-0-0.jpg)     (http://encyclopediavirginia.org/proxy.php?url=http://web3.encyclopediavirginia.org/resourcespace/filestore/userfiles/evr3313/TileGroup0/0-0-0.jpg)     (http://encyclopediavirginia.org/proxy.php?url=http://web3.encyclopediavirginia.org/resourcespace/filestore/userfiles/evr2149/TileGroup0/0-0-0.jpg)

It is with THAT noble and courageous tradition that I associate myself and of which I am proud.

Now, as to "soldiers" in the Rebel Army:

There are reports of what I would call isolated cases including an artillery battery and scattered information, some of which CIAA-FAN has mentioned (THANKS AGAIN!!).

This article, of which I also have a hard copy as published by the Franklin Battlefield Trust, outlines a proposal by CSA General Cleburne to arm and eventually emancipate loyal slaves who would be trained and deployed to fight for the Rebels.

http://franklinhomepage.com/eric-a-jacobson-controversial-document-on-slavery-debate-cms-14020#.U3TEBvldVPg

(http://bw-0dd6049f5fa537d41753be6d37859430-bwcore.s3.amazonaws.com/articles/14020_PatrickCleburne500.jpg)

He was one of 4 Confederate Generals later killed at the Battle of Franklin, Tenn in November 1864.
 
Check it out for yourself because it contains many interesting facts, but here are a few nuggets:

- The proposal was widely opposed, although a few officers under Cleburne's command, initially supported it.
- The CSA "high command" opposed it and some officers accused Cleburne of  betraying the Confederacy's basis for existence.
- Lee not only rejected the final "The Proposal to Enlist Slaves and Guarantee Freedom to All Loyal Negroes" in January 1864.  He ordered all copies of it destroyed.  
      - All but one copy apparently were.  Had it not survived, we may not have ever known it existed or certainly its full details.
- Gen Cleburne was never promoted again despite being regarded as of the South's best field commanders.
- Gen. Cleburne was an Irish immigrant and was not a slave holder.  Some scholars feel that his experience of being part of an oppressed (by the English) group may have colored his perceptions.

Slaves being forced ("impressed") into service (without compensation to them or even their masters) as stevedores, teamsters, personal servants, etc or laborers building fortifications) is one thing AND was common.  However, being armed and fighting is another matter completely.

y04 said:
Quote
Also, why would they not fight for the CSA if it would make them free?


The above information about Cleburne's rejected proposal makes this argument by y04 mostly moot.  THERE WAS NO INSTITUTIONAL PROMISE OF FREEDOM by the CSA itself until two weeks before the surrender of Gen. Lee in Virginia.  If I am wrong, I am certain that y04 will post a link to prove it.  His silence will confirm that he was talking out the side of his neck - again.

Furthermore, this recounting of one of the "favorite" examples (the Louisiana Native Guards) of Neo-Confederates falls apart upon closer examination.  THIS IS CLASSIC!!

Quote
When the state of Louisiana announced its secession on January 26, 1861, a group of free black men from New Orleans offered their services to the state, and were organized as the Louisiana Native Guards. Most were creoles, or people of mixed French and African ancestry, and many had been free since the Natchez Rebellion of 1729, long before New Orleans was even part of the United States. Some even owned slaves themselves.

The state, and then the Confederacy, accepted the unit and occasionally gave its members roles in ceremonies or parades, but refused to allow them into battle.  When New Orleans fell to Union forces in April 1862, the Louisiana Native Guards embraced the change, and offered their unit's services to Union general Benjamin F. Butler.  Butler initially refused, but in September 1862 the First Louisiana Native Guards was mustered into United States service. Two additional regiments soon joined them.
http://encyclopediavirginia.org/Black_Confederates#start_entry

Propaganda and BS (parades and ceremonies) pure and simple by the Confederates.

Therefore, considering it all, it has become clear to me that any Blacks who were "fighting" with the Confederacy did so under unique local circumstances including insubordination by Rebel officers, and in violation of the law of the CSA and the orders of its Army.

In conclusion we can all agree that y04 was quite correct "the choice was clear."  That is validated by the numbers that have been cited.  However, the implication of his statement is certainly not correct.  
  
"We" chose DIGNITY and SELF-RESPECT over cash.   :nod:   :clap:   :nod:    :clap:

O0 3981
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: ncsiacfan on May 15, 2014, 11:18:06 PM
Benjamin Brawley. Short History if the American Negro, 1913

Section 74, p. 198. Unlike some others, he said that Robert E. Lee favored offering freedom to Blacks  in exchange for their service. He also states the that the Louisiana Guards were not trusted by the Confederates and simply changed sides when it was apparent that the north would win and that the south was using blacks to build fortifications well before the north. This was not voluntary.

Some cites will omit important pages to get you to purchase.  Don't do that. You can get the entire book online. (Lost my URL, but it is there and free)
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: EB on May 15, 2014, 11:22:48 PM
One of these days I will have to visit the African-American Civil War Museum.

www.afroamcivilwar.org
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: Bison66 on May 16, 2014, 12:26:55 PM
One of these days I will have to visit the African-American Civil War Museum.

www.afroamcivilwar.org

Thanks, EB.
Yes!!

The memorial itself is quite impressive!!

Kudos to former DC Council member, Frank Smith, who fought what was at first a LONELY battle to bring the memorial and the museum to reality.

There's a big event in May 17, 2015 - The Grand March.  It would be a great time to visit DC.

Wonderful!!
O0
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: ncsiacfan on May 16, 2014, 12:55:40 PM
A correction is in order. In the battle near Petersburg, Virginia, the charge was lead by white soldiers. Black soldiers had been trained specifically for this when General Meade changed the order of battle.
Miners from Pennsylvania dug the trenches under the Confederate lines and laid the charges. The black soldiers had been trained to go around the crater after the explosion. The white soldiers went right into it. It can been seen today at the Petersburg battlefield. One quarter of the union dead were black soldiers. I am certain that was the scene in the movie Cold Harbour when a rebel soldier yelled "the Yankees are trapped in their own hole".

Benjamin Brawley,  History of Morehouse College, commissioned by the Trustees
http://fogottenbooks.org  and http://www.northamericanforts.com

The latter placed the location of Fort Whitehall  near Georgia Tech and said some of the original battery can be viewed on the Tech campus. This makes sense as Whitehall street runs right by there. It locates a battery D at Fair and Ashby (Lowrey Blvd). This is the rear of the Morehouse Campus next to Forbes Area. In writing about the purchase, Brawley (p. 55) said "The site was historic, being at the time still marked by the earthworks of the Confederates who offered stubborn resistance to the union...having such a spot devoted to the intellectual and moral betterment of those who were so largely the occasion of the civil war, was fully remarked at the time.

There was no mention of confederate dead of either race being buried on the property.
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: Bison66 on May 16, 2014, 01:11:15 PM
Thanks, ncsiacfan, for correcting the record.

It takes a big person to admit a mistake in public - big time.

y04 should take lessons from you.

Perhaps there is still - based upon those facts AND the 150th Anniversary celebrations of the Civil War - the potential opportunity to encourage some student / faculty research highlighting sites on and near the campuses of the Atlanta Center campuses. 

The geographical proximity to current students could spur their additional interest in our People's history during (and before and after) that period.

Perhaps your contacts can tell you if there are already some projects (memorials, exhibits, etc) underway.

THANKS AGAIN, ncsiacfan, for being a class act!!!

O0
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: VUU fan on May 16, 2014, 03:31:58 PM


There is going to be a re-enactment of the attack on Fort Pocahontas this weekend. The black Union soldiers were outnumbered by more than 2 to 1 and stopped the attack.




Charles City County News

RE-ENACTMENT Outnumbered, black Union soldiers stopped 1864 attack

Re-enactment will highlight 1864 victory in Charles City by black soldiers fighting for Union



The 16th annual re-enactment and 150th anniversary of the attack on Fort Pocahontas will be 1 p.m. Saturday and Sunday at 13150 Sturgeon Point Road. Tours of the fort begin at 10 a.m. both days and tickets are $10 for adults, $8 for students or $15 for adults and $10 for students to attend both days. For more information call (804) 829-9722 or visit www.fortpocahontas.org/reenactments.

full story here:

http://www.timesdispatch.com/news/local/central-virginia/charles-city/outnumbered-black-union-soldiers-stopped-attack/article_8c167c2c-24a5-5272-96aa-43a3dd101765.html

Quote
The engagement was small but the roughly 1,100 black soldiers with their white commanders were outnumbered more than 2-to-1 by the more than 2,500 Confederate soldiers attacking the unfinished fort.

Quote
John Salmon, the retired historian for the Virginia Department of Historic Resources who nominated the site for the National Register for Historic Places, said any time black troops were involved, “it upset the Confederates quite a bit,” he said.


Some Union officers also were hesitant to believe the black soldiers could hold their own.


“It wasn’t really until 1864 that really changed … proving all those doubters wrong,” he said. “It made quite an impression on everyone.”


The U.S. Colored Troops got their start as early as 1862, continuing a legacy of black men participating in American conflicts since the Revolutionary War.
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: Bison66 on May 20, 2014, 11:43:34 PM
Thanks, VUU!

I shared the info with some folks in the region.  I would have enjoyed the re-enactment a lot.
Never been to one.

All,

Keep running across more details on Blacks serving in the Union Army.

Most of the focus usually goes to the US Colored Troops, which were segregated units.  However, in addition there were Blacks who served in integrated units.

This book is Volume Two of an attempt to document their service.

Forgotten Black Soldiers Who Served in White Regiments During The Civil War: Volume II
By Juanita Patience Moss
(http://www.heritagebooks.com/images/store/covers/101-M5540.jpg)

Quote
In 1998, the author learned about a new monument in Washington, D.C., created to honor the black soldiers and sailors who had served in the Civil War. What she was about to learn; however, was that her great grandfather’s name would not be among those remembered there. Why not? Because he had not served in one of the segregated units whose members’ names are engraved on the memorial wall. Instead, Crowder Pacien/Patience had served in a white regiment. An identifiably “Col’d” man, he had been a private in the 103rd Pennsylvania Volunteer Infantry. After having been told that there had been no black soldiers serving in white regiments, the author made a hypothesis that if there had been one such black soldier in a white regiment, as she knew, then there might have been others. This series traces the author’s journey to such proof. The hundreds of names listed here should be proof enough for the “nay-sayers” to conclude that black men indeed did serve in white regiments.

http://www.heritagebooks.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=HBI&Product_Code=101-M5540&Category_Code=

O0
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: Bison66 on May 21, 2014, 12:01:10 AM
The 1st Alabama Cavalry Regiment was composed of Union-sympathizers, Confederate deserters and a few Black men as well.  It is sometimes described (wikipedia is one) as the only "all-white regiment" from Alabama in the Union Army.

In fact, there were a few Black men enlisted as soldiers in addition to the "undercooks" and teamsters.

Here is the tombstone of one Private Thomas Pool:

(http://www.1stalabamacavalryusv.com/roster/Tombstone/pool_thomas.jpg)
http://www.1stalabamacavalryusv.com/roster/Troopers.aspx?trooperid=1778

Neo-Confederate revisionists and sympathizers, take note.
O0
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: Bison66 on May 21, 2014, 12:45:02 AM
Third post of the night in this thread, but the info is just plain fascinating...

The republished article on this blog gives insight into how white southerners have been misled about the history and heritage that they so often celebrate AS IF all southerners (read that as all WHITES) were ardent secessionists and Confederate flag wavers.

Check it out.  Written by a true Southerner.  Here's an excerpt:

Quote
...If that were the case, I thought, then why were there hidden rooms in the graveyard at Parham? Maybe I had it mixed up; maybe those hidden men were really good brave loyal Southerners hiding from the Yankees.

Again came the, “Shhhhhhhhh. Let’s not talk about this” from the adults in my life.

But the older kids checked the story out with the older ones who would tell us the straight of it — the ones hiding were hiding from the Southern draft enforcers.

Then I overheard a conversation between my father and one of his relatives.

What? Some of the Thorntons were in the Union Army? Whoa! I thought. How did that happen? And no one would talk to me about the event or even acknowledge what I had overheard.

“Shhhhhhhh. Let’s not talk about this.”

As I got older I also questioned why the given name Sherman was widely used in my family: my grandfather had Sherman as one of his given names; my father had Sherman as one of his given names; my brothers has Sherman as one of his given names; and I have at least two cousins with Sherman as one of their given names. Somehow this choice of given name didn’t square with my conception of the turmoil that ripped through the Hills of Alabama and Mississippi some seventy-five years before I was born.

General Sherman was not one of my favorite people — he was not presented in any favorable light in any of the lessons in history I had at Hatley School. So what was I doing in a family with so many males named for Sherman? Oh well, I was told, they are named for someone else but that someone was never identified.

And if I persisted, out came the, “Shhhhhhhhhh. Let’s not talk about this.”

About 1970, my father asked my wife and me to go with him to Lann Cemetery, Splunge, Monroe County, Mississippi, to visit the grave of James Monroe Thornton. James Monroe Thornton was my father’s grandfather — James Monroe Thornton was the one who first named a son with the moniker “Sherman” — in 1865 he named a son John Sherman Thornton.

And while at the cemetery, my father told my wife what he had never told me: James Monroe Thornton served in the Union Army. Basically all he would or could tell me was that his grandfather, he had been told, was on the staff with General Sherman, had attained the rank of Lieutenant Colonel, and so admired the General that he vowed to name the first of his sons born after the war for the general.

James Monroe Thornton survived the war and when the first child born after the war was a son, he named him John Sherman Thornton.

Be damned if I would listen to another “Shhhhhhhh. Let’s not talk about this” again!

During the next year or two, I started my reading and researching of the Thornton family...

http://southernunionistschronicles.wordpress.com/tag/1st-alabama-cavalry/

Family secrets hide the realities.
O0
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: Bison66 on May 26, 2014, 10:51:24 AM
Check this Brother out:

(http://www.loc.gov/pictures/static/data/cwp/banner.jpg)

http://www.loc.gov/pictures/collection/cwp/

O0
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: Bison66 on May 26, 2014, 07:49:47 PM
Cartoon showing enslaved Africans welcoming Union troops.

(http://lcweb2.loc.gov/service/pnp/ppmsca/22800/22873r.jpg)
http://www.loc.gov/pictures/resource/ppmsca.22873/?co=drwg

Check out what she says.  It's a bit difficult to make out for these old eyes, but you youngsters should do alright.  LOL

O0
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: ncsiacfan on May 27, 2014, 12:06:45 AM
I had a student whose great Aunt had letters from two of her uncles who were enlisted men in the CSA.
She said that she would not let anyone see them. One day, my student sneaked them away and we copied them. They were very hopeful in the beginning. "As we marched through Tennessee., women gave us bread and honey". "There is going to be a great battle and the __ Mississippi is going the be in the middle of it because our arms are fine as any outfit the CSA. We have 500 muskets which can fire 500-600 yards and 1200 repeating rifles which fire 1200-1300 yards. This was 1861. And as the tactics of the day were European style from earlier in the century, line up and march straight ahead, you can see why the slaughter was so great. The letters stopped in 1863. At that time, they read like a person who did not expect to survive. "Tell cousin___ that we will meet again at the new Jerusalem".

I noticed that their outfit had been in the Army of Tennessee. I told my student that there was a Union Army of the Tennessee.  Maybe your old aunt thought that her uncles were in the northern army. 
A year later, I received a letter from my student's dad, who was a ranking Air Force officer on active duty thanking me. He said "it took a black professor at a black university to explain what the problem was. My aunts thought that her uncles were "traitors to the cause".
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: ‘87 Alum on May 27, 2014, 12:11:53 AM
Awesome historical perspectives and lessons!!
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: Bison66 on May 27, 2014, 12:48:21 AM
Wow!!

Priceless!!!!

Yes, there was, it seems, an Army of Tennessee on both sides.

Do you still have the copies of the letters?

Have copies been provided to museums, Lib of Congress, etc.?

O0

Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: ncsiacfan on May 27, 2014, 08:50:16 AM
No I wish I had. I told the student that these should be submitted to the Library of Congress after her Great Aunts died. First of all, these "rebs" were quite literate and they were enlisted men. "Did you (not the servants) get the spring planting in?" etc. And the letters went from 1861 to 1863 when they just stopped.
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: ncsiacfan on May 27, 2014, 09:04:26 AM
I should add that if your were the relative of a confederate soldier from Mississippi, you may not have known that General Oliver Otis Howard was the commander of the northern Army of Tennessee,
but your would know that his army was with General Sherman at the Battle of Atlanta and in their march to the sea.
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: Bison66 on May 27, 2014, 12:31:37 PM
Some Unionist "propaganda" (not necessarily a bad word):

(http://lcweb2.loc.gov/service/pnp/ppmsca/11200/11274r.jpg)

And here, Liberty hands a Black man a rifle:

(http://lcweb2.loc.gov/service/pnp/cph/3b40000/3b47000/3b47500/3b47500r.jpg)

O0
Title: Re: ?Did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america?
Post by: Bison66 on July 02, 2014, 09:42:23 PM
When I get a chance, I am going to revisit the article in the OP since many FACTS have been laid on the table in this thread that have resulted in my change of the thread title.

Meanwhile,...ON THE UNION SIDE:

Quote

"I had long been of the opinion that this race had a right to kill rebels.” Col. James M. Williams, commander of the 1st Kansas Colored Volunteer Infantry, always spoke, said a contemporary, as though he were “grinding his molars or gritting his teeth.” His regiment of escaped black slaves had been the first organized into service for the United States government, and he was determined that it give a good account of itself. They had already been the first blacks in combat in the Civil War and the first to die serving the flag. Williams had worked his men hard for months, had strong-armed civilian authorities to get his way, wedding his Puritan abolitionist fervor with a self-conscious sense of personal dignity. Now the twelve hundred men of his command—camped for the night of July 1, 1863, at Cabin Creek, Indian Territory- were about to make history, and if Williams did not know it, he nonetheless had brought it to pass.

Never before in the Civil War had black troops fought alongside white ones. Most whites, even many abolitionists, refused to consider the proposition. Maybe blacks should not be slaves, but certainly they were not the equals of white men and should not dishonor white soldiers by taking up arms themselves. Yet at this moment Williams had under his command some white infantry and cavalry units from Colorado and Kansas. The Confederates had blocked the line of march; they stood between Fort Gibson and the essential mile-long supply train in Williams’s charge. Whatever white men might think in general, here they would have to work with black soldiers if they wanted to survive. The Rebels were only a few hundred yards away, on the other side of the creek. Williams would attack the next morning, and he would use all his men.

It had taken the efforts of some very unusual men in addition to Williams to get the colonel and his command to the brink of battle.

The Kansas senator James H. Lane, the “Grim Chieftain,” was an outrageous demagogue. Tall, lanky, with a high forehead, deep-set eyes, and hollow cheeks, Lane was histrionic, played to his audience with populist rhetoric, and always put on a good show. He had a habit of progressively undressing while haranguing a crowd, throwing off one garment after another as his voice grew more strident. Had his life taken a different turn, he might have become a road-show preacher (in fact, one of his campaign tactics was to find God and be rebaptized in the towns where he traveled to deliver his speeches and undress). Instead, he had gone from pro-slavery Democrat to abolitionist Republican. At the start of the war, when the Federal capital was threatened with capture, Lane had organized the “Frontier Guards” and camped with them in the East Room of the White House to protect the President. Lincoln found him amusing, but in need of a leash.

In June 1862 Lane started recruiting troops from among free blacks, especially the swelling numbers of fugitive slaves in Kansas, men who had fled their masters in Missouri and Arkansas.  Raising black troops was against the law, and the public and Army were on the whole strongly hostile to it.  One Northern soldier summarized the general feeling: “I will Never fight by the side of A n----r & that is the feeling of the army.…” Said another: “If a negro regiment were to come and camp near an old regiment out here, the men would kill half of them.” And at the very moment Senator Lane was starting to form the 1st Kansas Colored in Leavenworth, on the basis of what he interpreted as a verbal approval from Lincoln, in Washington the President was telling a visiting delegation that “to arm the Negroes would turn 50,000 bayonets from the loyal Border States against us that were for us.”

Lane did not agree, or he did not care...
http://www.americanheritage.com/content/first-kansas-colored

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Title: Re: ?did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america?
Post by: Bison66 on October 06, 2014, 02:17:26 PM
True, Ken, for most!!

But we do know for sure that there are always a few brainwashed and confused individuals who miscomprehend the situation and who "fight" against their own interests.

There's a fascinating story of the Franklin Riot (Tenn) just after the Civil War.  There were Black and white RADICALS advocating that former Confederates not be given too much leeway to regain power AND there were white and Black CONSERVATIVES (these were the labels applied to them in the Official Report of the incident, not by me) who opposed the Radicals.

The Radicals did a series of marches in the Franklin area.  During (the last?) one, they were confronted in the streets by the Conservatives led by TWO BLACK MEN (or were they pushed up front?).  Shots rang out and two men were killed and several were wounded.  Both sides were armed but disagreed about who shot first.

It turns out that my Great Grandmother was a witness and gave a deposition to the investigators.  I am HOPING that she was on the Radical's side, but I have my doubts.  

Visiting Franklin next month to see what more I can find out.

O0

Amazingly, I now have a book in which my great grandmother's DEPOSITION about the Franklin (Tenn) Riot is included.  A local historian gave it to me during our enlightening visit to Franklin in April.

Perhaps she saw more than she reported, but she basically only said that some of the wounded were brought to her home to be treated.  She was a skilled mid-wife (requested by the "best families" of Franklin) and during the Civil War was sent to Montgomery, Ala (safely away from Union forces who might have liberated her) and worked with a Doctor also from Franklin.

Apparently, her medical experience was the reason the wounded were brought to her home.

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Title: Re: ??did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america??
Post by: Bison66 on October 10, 2014, 05:35:29 PM
Check out the Confederacy's TWENTY NEGRO LAW.

It exempted the slave owners (or overseers) of 20 or more enslaved Africans from military service in the army of the CSA.

While the self-serving nature (for the slave aristocracy) of this law is obvious, it was also designed to keep owners (or oversers) in place to "police" the Black folks in case of unrest.

Quote
While the law certainly created inequities in the Confederacy concerning the obligation to military service, its ostensible purpose should be taken seriously. Certainly it exempted slaveholders and/or their agents from service in the Confederate Army, but the Twenty Negro Law also obligated them to another purpose: “policing” the slaves. In other words, taken at its word, the law’s main purpose was meant to prevent unrest by slaves on the Confederate home front.

The fear of slave unrest in the Confederate South was quite real. Early in the war, as white men left to join the army and local militia units were sent away from home for service at the front, letters began appearing on the desks of southern leaders pleading that some men be left at home to maintain discipline among the slaves. (Civil War Emancipation has covered this topic before. To access those posts, <click here>.) The fear of slave revolt had helped create the Confederacy in the first place. It is ironic that instead of bringing white Southerners the feeling of security they craved, it made them only more worried.

This worry was not unfounded. As white manpower departed the traditional system of enforcing the slave system was strained or collapsed entirely. Armed force quite literally maintained slavery in the American South. Besides the activities of planters and overseers, a system of policing existed beyond the plantation to defend slavery. Patrols traveled the roads of the South, stopping African Americans away from their plantations to see if they had passes from their owners, and arresting those that did not. Private slave catchers operated to track down slaves that evaded the patrols, if they had not already been taken into custody by county sheriffs or village constables. And just about any town of a certain size in the South had facilities to detain fugitive slaves until they could be returned to their owners.

Yet to make this system work required manpower, and the insatiable demands of the Confederate military drained away the portion of the southern population bested suited to enforce the slave system: young adult white males. Hence, with the Twenty Negro Law, the Confederate government tried to keep a minimal level of manpower at home to prop up slavery and prevent the feared race war that white Southerners believed would come with emancipation.

http://cwemancipation.wordpress.com/2012/10/11/the-20-negro-law-and-emancipation/

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Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: ncsiacfan on October 13, 2014, 01:20:49 AM
Check out the following reference:

James G. Hollingsworth, Jr. Black Confederate Pensioners After the Civil War, May 2008. Mississippi History Now online.

He lists the reasons for blacks serving the Confederacy.
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: ‘87 Alum on October 13, 2014, 01:25:17 PM
I may have to stop & visit Franklin on our next trip to BHM.
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: MyTeVyKn on October 13, 2014, 10:31:32 PM
I mentioned a while back that I would post these...

THE CONFEDERATE NEGRO
Virginia's Craftsmen and Military Laborers, 1861 - 1865
James H. Brewer

http://www.amazon.com/The-Confederate-Negro-Virginias-Craftsmen/dp/0817354867

Quick Summary-This book help me realize and understand why FT Lee, VA is the home of the Quartermaster Corps.


Listed below, I found this book extremely fascinating...  WARNING-Very graphic and detailed in some of it's accounts.

FREEDOM'S SOLDIERS
The Black Military Experience in the Civil War
Edited by:  Ira Berlin, Joseph P. Reidy, Leslie S. Rowland

http://www.amazon.com/Freedoms-Soldiers-Black-Military-Experience/dp/0521634490/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1413253587&sr=1-1&keywords=freedom%27s+soldiers

Quick Summary-Stories told by Union Soldiers themselves.  In their own words and the words of other eyewitnesses through letters, archives, and memorials they reveal the multitude of complex experiences of African-Americans during the period of emancipation.

 

Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: Bison66 on October 13, 2014, 11:16:33 PM
I may have to stop & visit Franklin on our next trip to BHM.

BHM?

Black History Museum?

Where is it?

Thanks!
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Title: Re: why did SO FEW slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states
Post by: Bison66 on November 14, 2014, 12:45:11 AM
bison. slavery was economically out of the door.  especially for the large plantation owners.  the slaves were in the fields and raising livestock to feed themselves.  slavery would have died out in fifteen years because the slave owners would not have been able to afford slaves....

In our discussion some years back, y04 NEVER PROVIDED any evidence to back up his unsubstantiated claim that "slavery was economically out of the door."

The obvious (to me) implication was that slavery was unprofitable and would have died out on its own.  That type of argument seems to be made by those attempting to absolve slavers from the immorality of their actions over centuries.

A poll was done of world-class economists to determine what they believed was the reason that slavery was ended in the US of A.

They were asked to what extent they agreed with this statement:

Slavery in the United States was eradicated because of social and political events, not because it was an unprofitable institution for slaveholders.
http://www.igmchicago.org/igm-economic-experts-panel/poll-results?SurveyID=SV_aWBLHmVRxw5IY1T

The results show a strong concensus - a very strong one - that slavery was not eradicated because it was an unprofitable for slaveholders.

Quote
About the IGM Economic Experts Panel
This panel explores the extent to which economists agree or disagree on major public policy issues. To assess such beliefs we assembled this panel of expert economists. Statistics teaches that a sample of (say) 40 opinions will be adequate to reflect a broader population if the sample is representative of that population.

To that end, our panel was chosen to include distinguished experts with a keen interest in public policy from the major areas of economics, to be geographically diverse, and to include Democrats, Republicans and Independents as well as older and younger scholars. The panel members are all senior faculty at the most elite research universities in the United States. The panel includes Nobel Laureates, John Bates Clark Medalists, fellows of the Econometric society, past Presidents of both the American Economics Association and American Finance Association, past Democratic and Republican members of the President's Council of Economics, and past and current editors of the leading journals in the profession. This selection process has the advantage of not only providing a set of panelists whose names will be familiar to other economists and the media, but also delivers a group with impeccable qualifications to speak on public policy matters.
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Title: Re: why did SO FEW slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states
Post by: Bison66 on November 14, 2014, 01:00:46 AM
There is NO WAY any honest person could say that the number of Blacks in the CSA Army was even close at all to the numbers fighting for the Union.

y04, I see you still have no response to my inquiry from almost 4 years ago in this thread to "clarify" what you termed a "choice" of which side to "fight" on.  I do, of course, realize that you don't because it was muddled thinking that led you to say that enslaved folks had a "choice" in the first place.

O0

Forgive two posts in the same old thread the same night, but the info has come to my attention only recently.

As my quote above points out, y04 - as per usual - goes silent when asked to explain his muddled thinking.

Now,...

Looking for something else yesterday I came across a post BY y04 which seems to completely obliterate what he seemed to be trying to say about "choice."

See for yourself:
http://onnidan1.com/forum/index.php/topic,51734.0.html

If, as he claims in THIS thread, the "choice" was "clear", his post in the other thread makes it abundantly CLEAR WHICH CHOICE OUR ANCESTORS MADE....

They did NOT choose a few dollars over a chance to be free from enslavement.  They risked life and limb to escape the Confederacy even when it was not certain that Union troops would allow them to remain.

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Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: EB on November 14, 2014, 07:51:14 AM
In 2011 the Washington Post had an article on myths about the Civil War.  On myth is that slavery was not a part of the war.  It was a well written article.  It was a very profitable institution.
Title: Re: did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america? NO!
Post by: Bison66 on November 16, 2014, 10:42:26 AM
Tried to find the article, EB, without success.

Do you have it?
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Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: EB on November 16, 2014, 02:40:50 PM
Here it is.  Confederate enthusiasts as I call them are still mad.

----------

Five myths about why the South seceded (http://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/five-myths-about-why-the-south-seceded/2011/01/03/ABHr6jD_story.html)

By James W. Loewen February 26, 2011

One hundred fifty years after the Civil War began, we’re still fighting it — or at least fighting over its history. I’ve polled thousands of high school history teachers and spoken about the war to audiences across the country, and there is little agreement even about why the South seceded. Was it over slavery? States’ rights? Tariffs and taxes?

As the nation begins to commemorate the anniversaries of the war’s various battles — from Fort Sumter to Appomattox — let’s first dispense with some of the more prevalent myths about why it all began.

.....

5. The South couldn’t have made it long as a slave society.
Slavery was hardly on its last legs in 1860. That year, the South produced almost 75 percent of all U.S. exports. Slaves were worth more than all the manufacturing companies and railroads in the nation. No elite class in history has ever given up such an immense interest voluntarily. Moreover, Confederates eyed territorial expansion into Mexico and Cuba. Short of war, who would have stopped them — or forced them to abandon slavery?

To claim that slavery would have ended of its own accord by the mid-20th century is impossible to disprove but difficult to accept. In 1860, slavery was growing more entrenched in the South. Unpaid labor makes for big profits, and the Southern elite was growing ever richer. Freeing slaves was becoming more and more difficult for their owners, as was the position of free blacks in the United States, North as well as South. For the foreseeable future, slavery looked secure. Perhaps a civil war was required to end it.

As we commemorate the sesquicentennial of that war, let us take pride this time — as we did not during the centennial — that secession on slavery’s behalf failed.

.....
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: CIAA-FAN on November 16, 2014, 02:42:52 PM
THIS TOPIC HAS BEEN VISITED ON ONNIDAN AT LEAST TWICE BEFORE THAT I CAN SPECIFICALLY RECALL.  IN ANY EVENT LET ME OFFER THESE TWO BOOKS FOR YOUR EDIFICATION:

"FORGOTTEN CONFEDERATES" AN ANTHOLOGY ABOUT BLACK SOUTHERNERS, COMPILED AND EDITED BY CHARLES KELLY BARROW AND J.H. SEGARS & R.B.ROSENBURG; JOURNAL OF CONFEDERATE HISTORY SERIES, VOL. XIV, 1995.

"BLACK SOUTHERNERS IN GRAY" ESSAYS ON AFRO-AMERICANS IN CONFEDERATE ARMIES" BY ANDREW CHANDLER BATTAILE, ERVIN L. JORDAN, ARTHUR W. BERGERON, JR., RICHARD ROLLINS, THOMAS Y. CARTWRIGHT AND RUDOLPH YOUNG, EDITED BY RICHARD ROLLINS, 1994.

REMEMBER, THAT SLAVERY AND DEPRAVATIONS NOTWITHSTANDING, TO EVERY SLAVE ACTUALLY NOT BORN IN AFRICA, AMERICA WAS THEIR HOME, TOO.  THEIR ONLY KNOWN HOME.   A HOME WORTHY OF DEFENSE AGAINST THOSE "YANKEES". >:(
Title: Re: did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america? NO!
Post by: Bison66 on November 18, 2014, 12:35:11 PM
FAN,

Sorry, but it seems to me that the data and the personal histories we know about don't support your statement:

Quote
REMEMBER, THAT SLAVERY AND DEPRiVATIONS NOTWITHSTANDING, TO EVERY SLAVE ACTUALLY NOT BORN IN AFRICA, AMERICA WAS THEIR HOME, TOO.  THEIR ONLY KNOWN HOME.   A HOME WORTHY OF DEFENSE AGAINST THOSE "YANKEES".

Wish to explore the issue?

For starters...
We know that a huge percentage of the free Black male population joined those Yankees to fight those other "Americans."  

And we know
(y04's article re: Fort Monroe is a great example http://onnidan1.com/forum/index.php/topic,51734.0.html)
that thousands upon thousands of enslaved Africans took tremendous risks in the face of great uncertainty to "desert" Confederate lands to fight with those Yanks, to seek freedom from enslavement and to enjoy a better life.

And finally we know that a very small percentage and very small actual number of enslaved Africans TOOK UP ARMS to fight the Yankees.
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Title: Re: did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america? NO!
Post by: Bison66 on December 05, 2014, 09:24:27 PM
FAN?

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Title: Re: ??DID slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america??
Post by: Bison66 on January 11, 2015, 01:56:11 PM
Certainly, the Confederates would have been proud of their "loyalists" who "FOUGHT" with them against the Yankee aggressors.

So, where are their photographs in uniform and ARMED!?!?!?
Or,....The newspaper articles citing their valor in action against the Yanks?

THANKS to EB, we have this to add to the discussion:  onnidan1.com/forum/index.php?topic=96217.0

(https://i0.wp.com/usstudiesonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/jbrookes3.png)
https://jubiloemancipationcentury.wordpress.com/2014/12/19/black-boys-in-blue-a-gallery-of-young-african-americans-in-union-military-dress/

Altho this set of photos focuses on the youngsters who were flag bearers and drummers, we've seen several photos of Black Union soldiers and we've read where a HUGE percentage of free Africans/Blacks in the North served in the Union Army as compared to the piddling number of Blacks who served AS SOLDIERS in the forces of the slaving CSA.

And we have loads of documentation - letters, newspaper articles, photos - of African/Black Union SOLDIERS, not just personal servants or impressed and unpaid labor.
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Title: Re: did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america? NO!
Post by: Bison66 on May 08, 2015, 12:24:48 AM
FAN,

Sorry, but it seems to me that the data and the personal histories we know about don't support your statement:

Quote
REMEMBER, THAT SLAVERY AND DEPRiVATIONS NOTWITHSTANDING, TO EVERY SLAVE ACTUALLY NOT BORN IN AFRICA, AMERICA WAS THEIR HOME, TOO.  THEIR ONLY KNOWN HOME.   A HOME WORTHY OF DEFENSE AGAINST THOSE "YANKEES".

Wish to explore the issue?

For starters...
We know that a huge percentage of the free Black male population joined those Yankees to fight those other "Americans."  

And we know
(y04's article re: Fort Monroe is a great example http://onnidan1.com/forum/index.php/topic,51734.0.html)
that thousands upon thousands of enslaved Africans took tremendous risks in the face of great uncertainty to "desert" Confederate lands to fight with those Yanks, to seek freedom from enslavement and to enjoy a better life.

And finally we know that a very small percentage and very small actual number of enslaved Africans TOOK UP ARMS to fight the Yankees.
O0

FAN?

O0
Title: Re: did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america?
Post by: Bison66 on May 08, 2015, 12:38:37 AM
Check out the following reference:

James G. Hollingsworth, Jr. Black Confederate Pensioners After the Civil War, May 2008. Mississippi History Now online.

He lists the reasons for blacks serving the Confederacy.

ncsiacfan,

Thanks for that reference.  Made for very interesting reading.

Here's the link to the article:  http://mshistorynow.mdah.state.ms.us/articles/289/black-confederate-pensioners-after-the-civil-war

I don't see where he lists the reasons, but does mention that the Blacks for whom there are good records were NON-combatants:

Quote
Black noncombatants

The proportion of black pensioners among different work categories varied from state to state. The pension statutes in Mississippi, South Carolina, and Tennessee, for example, were intended primarily to reward the service of servants or cooks whose masters were assigned to units in the Confederate army. Despite state variations, an overall pattern of service among the black pensioners is clear. On average, 85 percent of the black pensioners served as servants or cooks with the Confederate army.

These are the types of support he says Blacks gave to the Confederates:

Quote
Black southerners contributed to the Confederate war effort in four ways. First, as slaves, they provided the labor that fueled the Southern cotton economy and maintained the production of foodstuffs and other commodities. Second, slaves were rented to or drafted by the Confederate government to work on specific projects related to the South’s military infrastructure, such as bridges and railroads. Third, black southerners were part of the work force in the Confederacy’s war-related foundries, munitions factories, and mines. In addition, they transported food and war material to the front by wagon, and provided services to wounded and sick soldiers in Confederate hospitals. Last, a large number of black southerners went to war with the Confederate army as noncombatants, serving as personal servants, company cooks, and grooms.

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Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: 81alphaeagle on May 08, 2015, 07:56:40 AM
Check out the following reference:

James G. Hollingsworth, Jr. Black Confederate Pensioners After the Civil War, May 2008. Mississippi History Now online.

He lists the reasons for blacks serving the Confederacy.

ncsiacfan,

Thanks for that reference.  Made for very interesting reading.

Here's the link to the article:  http://mshistorynow.mdah.state.ms.us/articles/289/black-confederate-pensioners-after-the-civil-war

I don't see where he lists the reasons, but does mention that the Blacks for whom there are good records were NON-combatants:

Quote
Black noncombatants

The proportion of black pensioners among different work categories varied from state to state. The pension statutes in Mississippi, South Carolina, and Tennessee, for example, were intended primarily to reward the service of servants or cooks whose masters were assigned to units in the Confederate army. Despite state variations, an overall pattern of service among the black pensioners is clear. On average, 85 percent of the black pensioners served as servants or cooks with the Confederate army.

These are the types of support he says Blacks gave to the Confederates:

Quote
Black southerners contributed to the Confederate war effort in four ways. First, as slaves, they provided the labor that fueled the Southern cotton economy and maintained the production of foodstuffs and other commodities. Second, slaves were rented to or drafted by the Confederate government to work on specific projects related to the South’s military infrastructure, such as bridges and railroads. Third, black southerners were part of the work force in the Confederacy’s war-related foundries, munitions factories, and mines. In addition, they transported food and war material to the front by wagon, and provided services to wounded and sick soldiers in Confederate hospitals. Last, a large number of black southerners went to war with the Confederate army as noncombatants, serving as personal servants, company cooks, and grooms.

O0

SO still getting his pension.
Title: Re: did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america? NO!
Post by: Bison66 on May 25, 2015, 04:50:34 PM
Indeed, 81alphaeagle, indeed!

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Title: Re: did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america? NO!
Post by: Bison66 on June 15, 2015, 12:50:03 AM
A glimpse via poetry by the GREAT Paul Lawrence Dunbar into the personal and emotional aspects of what it meant to family members for their relatives to go to war.

Quote
Below, Mitchel Capel recites “W’en Dey ‘listed Colored Soldiers”.  A poem by Paul Laurence Dunbar.  His father, Joshua Dunbar, was a member of the United States Colored Troops.
SEE VIDEO HERE:
https://youtu.be/sbuW78_j7y8

NICE!!!
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Title: Re: DID slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america? NO!
Post by: Bison66 on June 15, 2015, 02:19:32 PM
(http://findingeliza.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/usct-parade.jpg)

U.S. Colored Troops 1st Heavy Artillery Regiment, Knoxville Tennessee. I like to think that the men I studied are pictured. (Library of Congress photograph)

As I have said before, IF the Confederates had a significant number of Blacks "fighting" with/for they would have been proud of them and we would have photos like this one.

The most I have personally seen is the photo of the Louisiana Home Guard - about six of 'em - standing around informally with (presumably unloaded) rifles.  Others' research indicates that in regard to the Home Guard:
1) they saw no action,
2) were not issued ammunition,
3) were limited to parades and
4) switched sides to support the Union when US Army troops arrived.

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Title: Re: DID slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: Bison66 on June 18, 2015, 12:28:42 AM
This is the result of a search I did to find out about curfews for Blacks during the Civil War.

Try it and read through to at least the section on the Louisiana Home Guards to the top of p. 57.
https://books.google.com.pa/books?id=L6BURiBt340C&pg=PA51&lpg=PA51&dq=montgomery,+alabama+curfews+for+slaves+1864&source=bl&ots=Zjh7Pwl_5n&sig=H_ndME0qV_gghwm8Y2LQy6DdCnU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=PTyCVaCVNtGUsQS5vIPQAg&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=montgomery%2C%20alabama%20curfews%20for%20slaves%201864&f=false

This author gives well-resourced reports of support by a few southern slaves and Free Blacks for the Confederate cause.  As he continues, he reveals the nuances that remind us again that very little is cut and dried.
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Title: Re: DID slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: Bison66 on July 04, 2015, 04:03:37 PM
Interesting....

Quote
Battles Fought in Alabama Involving US Colored Troops

Boyd's Station, Alabama  March 18, 1865, 101st US Colored Infantry
Decatur Alabama  October 29-29th 1864  14th US Colored Infantry
Decatur Alabama  December 27-28th 1864  17th US Colored Infantry
Ft. Blakely Ala.  Mar. 31-Apr 9th, 1865  47th, 48th, 50th, 51st, 68th, 73rd, 76th, 82nd, 86th  US Colored Infantries
Ft. Gaines Alabama  August 2-8th 1864, 96th US Colored Infantry
Madison Station, Alabama  November 26th 1864  101st US Colored Infantry
Mud Creek, Alabama  January 5, 18th 1865,  106th US Colored Infantry
Pine Barren Creek Alabama  December 17-19th 1864  82nd US Colored Infantry
Scottsboro, Alabama January 8, 1865  101st US Colored Infantry
Spanish Fort, Alabama  March 27-April 8, 1865 68th US Colored Infantry
Sulphur Branch Trestle, Alabama   September 25, 1864, 111th US Colored Infantries.

May those who study Alabama Civil War history, include the stories of the US Colored Troops that fought and died upon Alabama soil.

http://usctchronicle.blogspot.com/2011/05/battlegrounds-of-us-colored-troops.html

Read the comment as well from a descendant of one of the soldiers.

I also picked up this tidbit:

One designation for an early unit was A.D. standing for "African Descent."
Quote
Holland’s story begins, if his memory as an elderly man is accurate, on Aug. 31, 1831, in Haydensville, Todd County, Ky., the same county that gave birth to Confederate President Jefferson Davis 23 years earlier. By the time the Union Army rolled into middle Tennessee, Holland was working as a farm laborer on land owned by Benjamin Harlan near the town of Cowan, Tenn. Harlan probably had a small spread and owned just a few slaves. Holland says his proper name was Harlan, too, but that he was called Holland in the Army.

Holland’s “official” life picks up when he enlists March 1, 1864, at Pulaski, Tenn. Standing 5-foot-3-inches and weighing 140 pounds, he was mustered into the 3rd Alabama Infantry AD (African descent) at Sulphur Branch Trestle, Ala., and promoted to sergeant in Company I on April 15.

Holland’s unit was reorganized and renamed the 111th United States Colored Infantry on June 25, 1864, and was assigned to garrison duty in Pulaski until September, when it was sent into northern Alabama.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/aug/7/black-soldier-rides-with-devil-forrest/?page=all

O0
Title: Re: Did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states? Not so much!!!
Post by: Bison66 on August 21, 2015, 10:33:32 PM
Black family entering Union lines as they escape slavery.

(http://www.archives.gov/research/military/civil-war/photos/images/civil-war-012.jpg)
http://www.archives.gov/research/military/civil-war/photos/images/civil-war-012.jpg

This is the overwhelmingly predominant behavior of African/Black people under the rule of the Confederacy.

Also, this is an interesting photo, including a Brother.

(http://www.archives.gov/research/military/civil-war/photos/images/civil-war-015.jpg)
http://www.archives.gov/research/military/civil-war/photos/images/civil-war-015.jpg

Allan Pinkerton, yes - that Pinkerton, is pictured with his staff.  He was head of Union intelligence and ran a network of spies for Lincoln.

O0
Title: Re: ??DID slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america??
Post by: Bison66 on October 26, 2015, 05:33:13 PM
(https://jubiloemancipationcentury.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/howcott-memorial-copy.jpeg?w=869)

A monument erected by a slaver to his "loyal slave" who died at age 14 during the Civil War.

A close up perspective on the CLAIM that Blacks/Africans fought for the Confederacy..............

Quote
The monument honors Willis Howcott, who was the slave of William Howcott. William Howcott was a member of Harvey’s Scouts, a Confederate cavalry unit from Mississippi made up of around 128 soldiers. A history of Harvey’s Scouts, written by John Claiborne and published in 1885, is here. While the names of the Scout’s soldiers are listed, neither the names of the slaves who were with the soldiers, nor a count of those slaves, are indicated in Claiborne’s history.

The Confederate Digest blog entry says that “William was 15 years old when he joined Harvey’s Scouts in 1864. Willis, his childhood playmate was only 13 but would not be dissuaded from going off to war with his friend. Willis was, tragically, killed in combat sometime in 1865 at the age of 14.” This is based on family memoirs and memories.

This same blog entry makes the claim, which is largely discredited, that an “estimated 65,000 or more African American men, both free and slave, were Confederate soldiers.” Was Willis Howcott one of these black Confederate soldiers?

First, some quick background. During the Civil War, many masters took their slaves with them as they went off to war. These slaves performed a number of tasks: they cooked, foraged for food, washed laundry, cut hair, cared for animals, etc. These slaves were not enlisted in the army; slave enlistment was prohibited by the Confederate government until March 1865. (One month later, Confederate general-in-chief Robert E. Lee surrendered at Appomattox, Virginia.)

I read through Claiborne’s history of the Scouts, and found no mention of Willis Howcott. Claiborne’s list of the unit’s dead (12 men in all) does not include Willis Howcott’s name. If Willis Howcott did die in battle, it is not recorded in this history, which was developed “out of a considerable amount of material furnished by different persons, and placed at his (Claiborne’s) disposal.”

In fact, Claiborne’s history of Harvey’s Scouts makes no mention of the unit’s slaves at all. Interestingly, Claiborne does document an encounter the Scouts had with a group of US Colored Troops, black men who enlisted in the Union army. Claiborne writes that the “Scouts fell in with a long wagon train from Natchez, guarded by a colored regiment. A desperate fight ensued. The negroes had been taught that we would show them no quarter, and fought like devils.” But there is no mention of the negroes who were with the Scouts. In Claiborne’s history, the slaves are not soldiers, but rather, invisible men.

https://jubiloemancipationcentury.wordpress.com/2015/02/15/remembering-willis-howcott-a-civil-war-monument-to-a-mississippi-slave/

The claim that free and enslaved Blacks/Africans (in any significant number) fought for the Confederacy rests on two kinds of evidence:  SLIM and NONE!!!

O0  8322
Title: Re: ?did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america?
Post by: Bison66 on February 20, 2016, 12:38:47 PM
True, Ken, for most!!

But we do know for sure that there are always a few brainwashed and confused individuals who miscomprehend the situation and who "fight" against their own interests.

There's a fascinating story of the Franklin Riot (Tenn) just after the Civil War.  There were Black and white RADICALS advocating that former Confederates not be given too much leeway to regain power AND there were white and Black CONSERVATIVES (these were the labels applied to them in the Official Report of the incident, not by me) who opposed the Radicals.

The Radicals did a series of marches in the Franklin area.  During (the last?) one, they were confronted in the streets by the Conservatives led by TWO BLACK MEN (or were they pushed up front?).  Shots rang out and two men were killed and several were wounded.  Both sides were armed but disagreed about who shot first.

It turns out that my Great Grandmother was a witness and gave a deposition to the investigators.  I am HOPING that she was on the Radical's side, but I have my doubts.  

Visiting Franklin next month to see what more I can find out.

O0

Amazingly, I now have a book in which my great grandmother's DEPOSITION about the Franklin (Tenn) Riot is included.  A local historian gave it to me during our enlightening visit to Franklin in April.

Perhaps she saw more than she reported, but she basically only said that some of the wounded were brought to her home to be treated.  She was a skilled mid-wife (requested by the "best families" of Franklin) and during the Civil War was sent to Montgomery, Ala (safely away from Union forces who might have liberated her) and worked with a Doctor also from Franklin.

Apparently, her medical experience was the reason the wounded were brought to her home.

O0

CORRECTION:

I now have the full depostion from my great grandmother Mariah!!!!!

She testified that she saw the FIRST shot fired.
She said it was by the Conservatives at the Union League and Colored League marchers.

The Conservatives were mostly former Confederates and led by a Colonel House, who was a founding member of the local KKK.

This was a bone of contention between the two sides with each claiming the other fired first.

The "forensic" evidence seemed to back up Mariah's and the Union Leaguers' version because almost of the wounds to the the Union Leaguers were in the back or the to  the back of their limbs.

O0

(My historical novel is coming along.  More than 220 pages in draft so far.)
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: ncsiacfan on February 20, 2016, 01:11:35 PM
Slaves did not rise up and attack "massas's" women in the big house. They tilled the fields and made it possible with their free labor for the confederates to put armies in the field that were nearly equal to that of the Union with six times the white population. Some servants (slaves) accompanied their masters to the fields in service with the CSA armies. General Robert E. Lee opposed the idea of arming blacks in the service of the Confederacy in the dying days of the conflict.

So why should we respond to this and every one else who uses us for their next paper? Why don't we talk about radical reconstruction after 1876 and the savage lynching of blacks that follow for the next 100 years. Glad to know that some got compensated for their service to the Confederacy. So what? Tell that to the relatives of black men hung from tree limbs and brutalized before dying.

 
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: Bison66 on February 20, 2016, 01:39:25 PM
Slaves did not rise up and attack "massas's" women in the big house. They tilled the fields and made it possible with their free labor for the confederates to put armies in the field that were nearly equal to that of the Union with six times the white population. Some servants (slaves) accompanied their masters to the fields in service with the CSA armies. General Robert E. Lee opposed the idea of arming blacks in the service of the Confederacy in the dying days of the conflict.

So why should we respond to this and every one else who uses us for their next paper? Why don't we talk about radical reconstruction after 1876 and the savage lynching of blacks that follow for the next 100 years. Glad to know that some got compensated for their service to the Confederacy. So what? Tell that to the relatives of black men hung from tree limbs and brutalized before dying.

ncsiacfan,

Thanks for your timely and appropriate commentary.  Almost all of the Africans "in" the CSA Army were "body servants" to their "masters" or, as you allude to, served as cooks, teamsters or laborers - without compensation and sometimes even without compensation to their "owners."

Also, butressing another of your points, the Rebs were forced to keep up to a third (some experts say) of their forces in "the rear" as INSURANCE against uprisings by enslaved Africans!!!

On the Southern "homefront"....
It was a very mixed picture.

There were thousands upon thousands of Confederate DESERTERS.  Just prior to Appomattox, Lee lost about 35% of his army to desertion!!!

Enslaved Africans constantly sabotaged implements and other property.  They escaped to freedom and resisted in other ways.

There were instances in which enslaved African women slit the throats of their "mistresses" or otherwise hurt/killed them.  The evidence is in letters or diaries written by white plantation women.

When the War broke out, those Africans got bolder.  In the border states they escaped with food, other supplies, wagons, horses, etc  - often after sabotaging the planatations where they had been held in bondage.

There's quite a bit about that in an O-dan Poltics thread as well as the Destruction of Reconstruction (white terrorism) period that you mentioned.  If you haven't seen it, search for "culture history" and click "In thread title"  in that forum and it'll pop up.

This thread began when I suggested to y04 that he begin a thread where we could discuss his ridiculous assertion that enslaved Africans "had a choice" and his implication that they chose to fight for the CSA because of higher pay."  All these years later he has still never explained how enslaved people had a simple "choice."

But the data shows that OVEWHELMINGLY our Ancestors chose to flee to and/or fight for FREEDOM and not to fight with Rebs for a few dollars more, which was y04's ridiculous implication/contention.

O0
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: ncsiacfan on February 20, 2016, 07:09:25 PM
Thanks Bison66. As you know, I accept your and EB's words as the truth and always enlightening. It is just hard to keep up with you guys. And this coming from a Maroon Tiger.
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: Bison66 on February 20, 2016, 07:34:23 PM
Thanks Bison66. As you know, I accept your and EB's words as the truth and always enlightening. It is just hard to keep up with you guys. And this coming from a Maroon Tiger.

Hey, I appreciate those kind words, but at the same time I suggest you check me out to ensure I'm accurate.

I ain't ever gonna lie, but "the truth" is a serious (2) word(s), if you get my drift......

Thanks again.

O0

Title: ??did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america??
Post by: Bison66 on March 14, 2016, 09:44:02 PM
As my research continues, I came across this mention of Blacks/Africans "fighting" for the Confederacy.
[Caught my eye because a majority of my historical novel takes place in and around Franklin, TN, where my great grandmother was enslaved and emancipated.]

This is from a history of African-Americans in Tennessee:

Quote
...The Confederates lost their last major army in the Upper South. They suffered some 6,000 casualties and the loss of six generals at the preceding Battle of Franklin (about thirty miles south of Nashville) on November 30, 1864. Then some 10,000 casualties (dead, wounded, and prisoners) were suffered on the Nashville battlefield just two weeks later. Some barefooted and shivering Confederate soldiers were glad to be captured by black soldiers. General Hood headed the remanants of his confused army south across the Tennessee River, then through Alabama into Oxford, Mississippi, where he resigned in humiliation by January 15, 1865.
 
        The commanding Union general at Nashville, George H. Thomas, said: "The blood of white and black [Union] men has flowed freely together for the great [American] cause, which is to give freedom. Colonel Charles H. Thompson of the 12th USCT Regiment and his brigade of Colored Troops exhibited courage and steadiness that challenged the admiration of all who witnessed the charge." The Nashville True Union reported, "The hills of Nashville will forever attest to how desperately the despised slave will fight when he strikes for freedom." When the USCT marched from the battlefield, the men sang a moving rendition of John Brown's Body ("Glory, Glory, Hallelujah! His soul is marching on!"), leaving few spectators without tears.
 
        John Brown, a fanatical white abolitionist, and his black and white vigilantes attacked Harper's Ferry, Virginia, on October 16, 1859, and fired the first shots of the coming Civil War in a futile effort to free and arm the local slaves. Brown, his son, and the black and white vigilantes lost their lives either in the battle or by hanging. Brown's memory and heroic efforts were preserved in the melodious songs of black people.
 
        Before the last black regiments were mustered out of service in 1866, about 5,107 USCT casualties were suffered from capture, disease, wounds, and death in Tennessee. The graves of the USCT still can be found in various national cemeteries: Nashville (1,909); Memphis (4,208--including the "Fort Pillow" section); Chattanooga (103); Knoxville (663); Cumberland River (12); and Stones River (186). After the war, some blacks made annual pilgrimages (even as late as 1979-1995 in Nashville) to the local national cemeteries to honor the black Union soldiers and view their tombstones marked distinctively USCT.
 
        There was a category of "black Confederates." Nearly 2,000 blacks (some voluntarily, but most involuntarily) served the Confederate Army of Tennessee in various capacities, including impressed servants, cooks, laborers, herders, and teamsters. When the Tennessee General Assembly amended the 1906 Confederate Pension Law in 1921 to include former ("loyal") black Confederate "workers, there were several black applicants. Recorded in the file of Caesar Hays are his words: "I stayed with my master until we were captured, and that was all I could do." Richard Lester of Wilson County could get no pension because he escaped when his master was captured at Fort Donelson. Monroe Stephenson of Maury County remained with Company B, 9th Tennessee Cavalry, until the last surrender.
 
        The Confederates in Richmond tried to organize black regiments. After receiving written support from General Lee, the Confederate Congress passed a law to organize slave soldiers in March of 1865. On the same day that President Lincoln made an impressive review of 25,000 black Union army soldiers on the James River, the Confederates precipitously paraded a slave regiment in Richmond, where they hoped that "our loyal slaves" would fight as effectively for the Rebels as the USCT then performed for the Yankees. But it was too late for a dying and desperate Confederacy.
 
        Blacks were of no real use to the Confederate war effort. There were too many barriers for the Confederates to overcome: their deep racial hatred for blacks; the slaveowners' opposition to the military use of valuable slaves; and the blacks' loyalty to the Union. All these factors negated any real gains the Confederates could realize through forced black participation in a white southern rebellion. In his book, Southern Negroes, 186l-1865 (1938), southern historian Bell I. Wiley wrote, "It hardly seems likely that slaves who greeted the Yankees and grasped freedom with such alacrity under ordinary circumstances would by the donning of Confederate uniforms have been transformed into loyal and enthusiastic fighters for the establishment of the institution of slavery." (p. 162.) The slavocracy moaned that the "slaves trusted most" were often the first to flee to the Yankee side.
http://library3.tnstate.edu/library/DIGITAL/document.htm

I remember reading about the "parade" in Richmond.  It was described as a bunch of folks, including hospital orderlies, quickly assembled and put in uniform.

O0  8896
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: MyTeVyKn on March 15, 2016, 12:41:04 AM
FREEDOM’S SOLDIERS, The Black Military Experience in the Civil War
Edited by:  Ira Berlin, Joseph P. Reidy, Leslie S. Rowland

Here’s an excerpt that is most profound:

Slaveholders experienced the war as a passage to Hell rather than a road to a Promised Land.  As slavery disintegrated, they grew increasingly bitter, often lashing out at those men, women, and children who remained under their control.  None exceeded the fury of owners in loyal Kentucky, where nearly 60 percent of the black men of military age seized freedom by enlisting in the Union army, the largest proportion of any slave state.  With the men beyond reach, the soldiers’ families became targets of the slaveholders’ ire.  Patsey Leach, whose husband had died in combat, testified to the consequences of her master’s rage.  
                        
Camp Nelson  Ky  25” March 1865
   
        Personally appeared before me J M Kelley Notary Public in and for the County of Jessamine State of Kentucky Patsey Leach a woman of color who being duly sworn according to law doth depose and say—

   I am a widow and belonged to Warren Wiley of Woodford County Ky.  My husband Julius Leach was a member of Co. D. 5” U.S.C. Cavalry and was killed at the Salt Works Va. About six months ago.  When he enlisted sometime in the falloff 1864 he belonged to Sarah Martin Scott County Ky.  He had only been about a month in the service when he was killed.  I was living with aforesaid Wiley when he died.  He knew of my husbands enlisting before I did but never said anything to me about it.  From that time he treated me more cruelly than ever whipping me frequently without any cause and insulting me on every occasion.   About three weeks after my husband enlisted a Company of Colored Soldiers passed our house and I was there in the garden and looked at them as they passed.  My master had been watching me and when the soldiers had gone I went into the kitchen.  My master followed me and Knocked me to the floor senseless saying as he did so, “You have been looking at them darned n----r Soldiers”  When I recovered my senses he beat me with a cowhide  When my husband was Killed my master whipped me severely saying my husband had gone into the army to fight against white folks and he my master would let me know that I was foolish to let my husband go he would “take it out of my back.”  he would “Kill me by piecemeal” and he hoped “that the last one of the n----r soldiers would be Killed”  He whipped me twice after that using similar expressions.  The last whipping he gave me he took me into the Kitchen tied my hands tore all my clothes off until I was entirely naked, bent me down, placed my head between his Knees, then whipped me most unmercifully until my back was lacerated all over, the blood oozing out in several places so that AI could not wear my underclothes without their becoming saturated with blood.  The marks are still visible on my back.  On this and other occasions my master whipped me for no other cause than my husband having enlisted.  When he had whipped me he said “never mind God dam you when I am done with you tomorrow you never will live no more.”  I know he would carry out his threats so that night about 10 o’clock I took my babe and travelled to Arnolds Depot where I took the Cars to Lexington.  I have five children.  I left them all with my master except the youngest and I want to get them but I dare not go near my master knowing he would whip me again.  My master is a Rebel Sympathizer and often sends Boxes of Goods to Rebel prisoners.  And further Deponent saith not.
                                        Her
HDcSr
                        Signed       Patsey        Leach
                                       mark
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: Bison66 on March 15, 2016, 03:33:51 AM
Thanks, MyTeVyKn.

That poor woman!
And she took the decision to leave her other children behind.  THAT was a heavy cross to bear!!

O0

P.S.  Meant to say that one of the co-authors, Joe Reidy, is (or was) a prof at Howard.
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: MyTeVyKn on March 15, 2016, 10:16:28 AM
Thanks, MyTeVyKn.

That poor woman!
And she took the decision to leave her other children behind.  THAT was a heavy cross to bear!!

O0

P.S.  Meant to say that one of the co-authors, Joe Reidy, is (or was) a prof at Howard.

You're welcome.  I found this book to be a very good read with factual accounts throughout.  It opened my eyes even more so to the testimony of struggle, pain, torture, strength, and courage from men, women, and children of the black race during the days of slavery and beyond.  It was a fascinating read and causes me to love my people deeply.
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: ‘87 Alum on March 15, 2016, 10:18:43 AM
I may have to stop & visit Franklin on our next trip to BHM.

BHM?

Black History Museum?

Where is it?

Thanks!
O0

BHM is the airport code for Birmingham.
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: Bison66 on March 15, 2016, 10:51:16 AM
Thanks, MyTeVyKn.

That poor woman!
And she took the decision to leave her other children behind.  THAT was a heavy cross to bear!!

O0

P.S.  Meant to say that one of the co-authors, Joe Reidy, is (or was) a prof at Howard.

You're welcome.  I found this book to be a very good read with factual accounts throughout.  It opened my eyes even more so to the testimony of struggle, pain, torture, strength, and courage from men, women, and children of the black race during the days of slavery and beyond.  It was a fascinating read and causes me to love my people deeply.
   

MTVK,

Question:  Does that book explore the question of Africans/Blacks serving AS SOLDIERS in the CSA Army?

Incidentally, y'all, that prof at Howard is white.

O0
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: ncsiacfan on March 15, 2016, 12:42:30 PM
This was terrible. One of my white neighbors and I have a lot in common and we are always talking. He grew up on a farm in Alabama before working as a contract intelligence officer and traveling out of the US "in government service". He once told me that a old black man who had been a slave who lived on the farm next to his family told him that "slavery not so bad". Why should he say anything else to a child? It was comments like this from adults that I was talking about when I think that you thought that I was criticizing you Bison66. It was not meant to be.  I would tell people 'I am not interested in what your black friend said. Half the time it was a subordinate on the job. And I would ask "what makes you think that you know more about me and my people than I do. Next I would not discuss anything with them unless they were a true friend.
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: Bison66 on March 15, 2016, 01:40:23 PM
This was terrible. One of my white neighbors and I have a lot in common and we are always talking. He grew up on a farm in Alabama before working as a contract intelligence officer and traveling out of the US "in government service". He once told me that a old black man who had been a slave who lived on the farm next to his family told him that "slavery not so bad". Why should he say anything else to a child? It was comments like this from adults that I was talking about when I think that you thought that I was criticizing you Bison66. It was not meant to be.  I would tell people 'I am not interested in what your black friend said. Half the time it was a subordinate on the job. And I would ask "what makes you think that you know more about me and my people than I do. Next I would not discuss anything with them unless they were a true friend.

Naw, ncsiacfan I never thought you were criticizing me. [I had to go back to see what you might be referencing.]  Not at all.  Re-read my positive and laudatory reply to you.

It's a cliche, but in this case it is true: You got me all wrong!   :lmao:
If you want, point out (what you thought I thought was) the criticism, OK?

If I came off like I was offended or rec'd your comments as criticism, I regret that.  Not in my mind at all.

The anecdote you told about your neighbor reminds me of an experience I savored.  On a trip to South Africa, we were in the Wine Country.  That's where Stellenbosch is located, which was the "birthplace" of Afrikaaner-ism!!  Like being in Pulaski, TN or Stone Mountain, GA in re: to the KKK.

We were staying at this beautiful place (got a great discount) called Lanzarac (check it out on line).  Those damn Boers and white so-called supremacists (in portraits on the walls) were turning over in their graves that we three "Coloreds" were staying there and eating there.  The food was FABULOUS!!!!!

We, but especially I, were enjoying the irony, the "progress" and I took the opportunity to put our young white waiter in the same position that SO MANY of our people were placed in historically and even now.  (For example, in some suburban or private high school classrooms where all students turn to the one or two Black students when issues of race,or poverty, etc. come up.) The waiter knew his response to my question could affect the size of his tip. Big difference was that he didn't have to worry about getting reprimanded or fired by the owners...or back in the day even possibly being pulled outside and beaten or perhaps killed.

But anyway,...I relished the opportunity as a Black customer to ask a white person in a slightly subservient position in a Black-majority country:
How do you feel about the changeover from apartheid to the current political situation of majority rule?

He did not noticeably squirm, which I was watching for. He gave me a credible and nuanced answer claiming that he was cool with it but his father and his generation were not.

IF he was being honest, it was a decent answer.
But he may have been doing what that old Black man was doing: Not making waves.

OR, he was avoiding reliving the trauma in a situation where nothing would come of it anyway.

Good dialogue, y'all.

O0
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: MyTeVyKn on March 15, 2016, 06:04:50 PM
Thanks, MyTeVyKn.

That poor woman!
And she took the decision to leave her other children behind.  THAT was a heavy cross to bear!!

O0

P.S.  Meant to say that one of the co-authors, Joe Reidy, is (or was) a prof at Howard.

You're welcome.  I found this book to be a very good read with factual accounts throughout.  It opened my eyes even more so to the testimony of struggle, pain, torture, strength, and courage from men, women, and children of the black race during the days of slavery and beyond.  It was a fascinating read and causes me to love my people deeply.
   

MTVK,

Question:  Does that book explore the question of Africans/Blacks serving AS SOLDIERS in the CSA Army?

Incidentally, y'all, that prof at Howard is white.

O0

The accounts from this book deals mostly with the Union Army Soldiers, their leaders, family, and acquaintances.  It talks about logistics, i.e., food, medicine, pay, excavations (digging building bunkers/forts) and why black men joined.  It contains actual letters like the one posted previous of depositions for accountability.  I found them quite fascinating since a lot of the slaves could not read or write yet they found abolitionist, I'm guessing, to translate and document their accounts.  Goes to show some white folk ain't all bad.  I have another book to share that gives the account of blacks in the CSA Army.  Will post later as I am headed home from work.
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: ncsiacfan on March 15, 2016, 07:36:41 PM
I am cool with it Bison66. You and a few others on this board know what a "colored" is when over there".
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: MyTeVyKn on March 15, 2016, 10:12:13 PM
The Confederate Negro, Virginia’s craftsmen and military laborers, 1861-1865
By James H. Brewer
Duke University Press, Durham, N.C.  1969

Preface


The omission of the Confederate Negro from the pages of history seems like a striking instance of the death of the unfit in the struggle for historical survival.  However, fitness to live for human service is quite another matter than fitness to survive in the rugged contest for meaningful identification in a nation’s history.  The legacy of the Negro, free or slave, in the War for Southern Independence has too often been ignored by the historian.  Scholars have avoided the unsavory task of linking the Negro to the Confederate war effort, a cause generally interpreted as one designed to sustain his enslavement and degradation…
__________________

This book sets forth the extensive involvement of the Virginia Negro in the South’s war efforts.  It shows how Negro manpower was used to close a huge gap in Virginia’s technological labor needs.  The Negro’s brawn and his skill were key elements in the mechanism of Confederate technology, logistics, transportation, and fortification.  Bell Irvin Wiley’s definitive study, Southern Negroes, 1861-1865, probes the war experiences of the Negro in the Confederate States of America.  The present writing, however, is concerned solely with the distinctive character of the war experience of the Negro in Virginia, the major battlefield of the Civil War.  For four years the Negro, whether free or slave, sometimes by choice and other times by necessity, contributed a sustaining effort to the War for Southern Independence….

_________________________________

In my reading I found that the main reason why Negroes, free or slave, supported the CSA Army was that they were mobilized out of necessity by legislative means of the General Assembly and Confederate Congress.  “The immense demands of armed conflict were such that they could not be borne by whites alone.”  Private Industry used a great deal of Black manpower to offset the dwindling pool of white civilian war workers as well.  This created a serious problem in Virginia.  The impressment of slaves and free Negroes to labor on fortifications and river batteries, coupled with the slaveowners’ practice of hiring out a large percentage of their slaves to the quartermaster, ordnance, and other bureaus of the War Department, tended to exhaust the supply of available Negro manpower which was necessary for the agricultural and industrial needs of the state.  The labor shortage was a major problem and as the war became more critical, open conflict between these groups ensued and may have contributed to the South’s demise.
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: Bison66 on March 18, 2016, 09:35:12 PM
ncsiacfan,

Was that what it was?   :)
No problem!

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Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: Bison66 on March 18, 2016, 09:39:05 PM
MTVK,

Thanks much!!!

So far that 1969 book seems to buttress the point that most Africans/Blacks were "impressed" into CSA service and worked in support roles.  The "new" point in that excerpt is about the role of Blacks waaaay behind enemy lines in industry.  I've come across references to that in my research and incorporated a touch of it in my novel.

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Title: ??DID slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america??
Post by: Bison66 on September 09, 2016, 11:58:53 PM
??DID slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america??

ANOTHER NAIL - RIGHT HERE - IN THE COFFIN OF NEO-CONFEDERATE REVISIONISM!!

Quote
If, after scrutiny, evidence is so meager, [THEN] there must be an additional reason why a large number of academics and non-scholars nonetheless believe that there was a significant body of black soldiers fighting for the South.

It is, partly, because the scholars who propose such amounts of black soldiers are misinterpreting the available sources.(30) Whereas professional historians specialized in Civil War history discard the possibility that large numbers of blacks served in Southern ranks, the academics most actively promulgating black Confederates are not, in fact, trained historians. The risk is great, therefore, that they lack the scrutiny needed to make a correct interpretation and [OFTEN] take sources on face value.

The sources used by them are, after all, largely unreliable, as is explained by Bruce Chadwick, in The Reel Civil War.
http://www.let.rug.nl/usa/essays/1801-1900/the-black-lost-cause/elaboration.php

This is an article posted over several pages.

And this is from the Conclusion page:
 
Quote
Conclusion

It seems that the best case that can be made for large numbers of colored Confederates is based on sloppy evidence that cannot and does not convince the large majority of historians. Many of the accounts that the promotors of black Confederates rely on are ambiguous, partisan, or the result of revisionism in history. Sometimes, however, Rollins et al misrepresent the testimonies made, such as ascribing loyalty to a slave who may just fear for his hide, or by referring to blacks as "Afro-Virginians."

These untrained historians too easily derive favorable conclusions from unclear sources and are sincerely under the impression that they honor a large group that has unjustly been left out of the major historiography, motivated, it seems, by a union of reconciliation and racial awareness of earlier historiographical periods. Their remedy is the production of books and articles, backed up by faulty scholarship, which lead to the conclusion that large numbers of loyal blacks must have accompanied the Southern armies and have actively handled rifles.

The author is, IMO, too diplomatic or too kind OR perhaps even too naive for not at lest mentioning the POLITICAL motivations of those who wish to retroactively "whitewash" the Confederacy.  They seem to want to have us believe that the Confederates weren't so bad or else why would Blacks have fought for it?

As we know and we still see today, there are ALWAYS a few people who will join with their oppressors - or appear to but have other agendas.  Some are simply misguided or brainwashed.  

But HISTORY, PHOTOGRAPHS, OFFICIAL RECORDS AND PERSONAL TESTIMONIES MAKE IT CLEAR THAT THOUSANDS UPON THOUSANDS OF AFRICANS/BLACKS threw down their tools and ran off for freedom behind Union lines and/or joined the Union Army where they could.

Blacks "fighting" for the South were few and revisionist efforts to misuse them for political purposes will ultimately fail.  Just as the apparent motive behind this thread has failed.

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Title: ??DID slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america?? NO!!!
Post by: Bison66 on January 07, 2017, 05:51:35 PM
THE FAILURE OF ALL the revisionist efforts to claim that Africans/Blacks fought for the Confederacy in any significant or meaningful way is BECAUSE ultimately the facts do not support their BS.

Where are the contemporary reports from Confederate officers lauding the fighting skills of Colored troops?

By contrast, feast your eyes on this extensive reporting by Union generals and other officers on the valor and contributions in just one small sector of the overall War of Rebellion:

One example:
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-eVe_Gzmjd1s/WFX0994r9EI/AAAAAAABZrY/kQphcfx0Q4wlBP_dmNfJ70QmfquKrBfRwCLcB/s1600/Screen%2BShot%2B2016-12-17%2Bat%2B8.22.56%2BPM.png)

Quote
Colonel Morgan remembered the day this way:
It was a grand and terrible sight to see those men climb that hill over rocks and fallen trees, in the face of a murderous fire of cannon and musketry, only to be
driven back. White and black mingled together in the charge, and on the retreat. . . . When General Thomas rode over the battle-field and saw the bodies of colored men side by side with the foremost, on the very works of the enemy, he turned to his staff, saying: 'Gentlemen, the question in settled; negroes will fight.
And stats, too:

(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-D1GXrUtmx_g/WEkBBJ6eabI/AAAAAAABZFQ/XDMpoo5rftESTOIQKts4ks91s2GCGwNjQCLcB/s640/Screen%2BShot%2B2016-12-08%2Bat%2B12.38.52%2BAM.png)

http://usctwillcotn.blogspot.com/search?updated-min=2016-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&updated-max=2017-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&max-results=11

Yeah, secessionists, revisionists and their allies suck!!

Not sure why a Black man would try to perpetuate the nonsense of revisionists, but....some folks do strange things when "the enemy has outposts in (their) minds."

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Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: Bison66 on August 12, 2017, 01:21:07 AM
Another nail in the coffin for Neo-Confeds and other revisionists....

Giving the lie to the claim that Blacks/Africans fought in any significant number for the Rebs is this sad (in retrospect) Reso;ution adopted by a Mass Meeting of the Confederate 7th Tennessee Cavalry on February xx, 1865 - just a few weeks before Lee's surrender.

A great PRIMARY SOURCE:
http://cdm15138.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/ref/collection/p15138coll6/id/4123

At the very bottom of p. 2 is a resolution re: enlisting Africans/Blacks in the Army.  The timing makes it clear that by that VERY LATE DATE , NO decision had been made to enlist Blacks/Africans.

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Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: soflorattler on August 14, 2017, 09:12:47 AM
People that defend confederate monuments under the guise of "history"-

Why don't we have Nat Turner busts, Grant elementary/middle/high schools and parks?

Why don't we have monuments to black slaves?

Why don't we have statues of Lincoln in every southern town?

Why aren't there southern counties named after union generals?

Where are the monuments to union soldiers?

Why were the majority of these monuments built during the Civil Rights era 1950s and 1960s?

The truth is this isn't "history" at all. It's "Confederate revisionist history".

The truth is it's a tribute to white supremacy.

Not one Confederate monument honors a person of color.

The truth is it the way southern whites lie to themselves about their heritage of treason, slavery and their philosophy that God made them superior to the black race.

They are wrong.
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: CIAA-FAN on August 14, 2017, 02:55:30 PM
ASK "Y" AND "OLD SPORT". :popcorn:
Title: Re: ??DID slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america???
Post by: Bison66 on October 21, 2017, 01:09:51 AM
A few more details on this subject:

From Harvard Professor John Stauffer, who studies antislavery movements, the Civil War, and American social protest.

Quote
Black Confederate soldiers likely represented less than 1 percent of Southern black men of military age during that period, and less than 1 percent of Confederate soldiers. And their motivation for serving isn’t taken into account by the numbers, since some may have been forced into service, and others may have seen fighting as a way out of privation. But even those small numbers of black soldiers carry immense symbolic meaning for neo-Confederates, who are pressing their case for the central idea that the South was a bastion of states’ rights and not a viper pit of slavery, even though slavery was central to its economy.
https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2011/09/black-confederates/

This section addresses the "fake" choice that y04 once claimed Blacks/African in the Confederacy had:

Quote
Freedmen in the Confederacy faced re-enslavement in Virginia and elsewhere, said Stauffer, so they made displays of loyalty that were really gestures of self-protection — a “hope for better treatment, a hope not to be enslaved.”

Loyalty among the few black Confederates was at least ambiguous, said Stauffer. It was further undermined by the Confiscation Act of Aug. 6, 1861, which allowed Union forces to “confiscate” slaves and other “property” used to support the Confederacy. Under the act — the first of two — the freedom of such slaves was left ambiguous, said Stauffer, but it foreshadowed black emancipation and gave slaves even more reason to flee northward.

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Title: ??did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america?- NOT
Post by: Bison66 on January 01, 2018, 10:26:49 AM
Came across this in my research....

y04 will like this because, like him, the writer was an Army clerk.

A Rebel War Clerk's Diary at the Confederate States Capital 1866
John Beauchamp Jones

On this page (431) of the man's diary, he comments on the FAILED vote by the CSA Congress to enlist 'negroes" into the Rebel Army.

https://books.google.com.pa/books?id=Q3YFAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA431&lpg=PA431&dq=confederate+reserves+to+contain+negroes&source=bl&ots=B5ucrEE6W1&sig=PZlC7aDeig_xQtJO1m9fZ9XnrF4&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiB9PC26rXYAhUJPiYKHbUgDRUQ6AEIRDAF#v=onepage&q=confederate%20reserves%20to%20contain%20negroes&f=false

We will note, of course, that this February 1865 vote took place just weeks before Lee's surrender and Forrest's dispersing of his troops.

On another page, Jones includes an entire letter from Jeff Davis calling for "negroes" to be enlisted and be freed.

Again, by the time the CSA Congress became desperate enough to allow Africans/Blacks to "fight" for them, the Confederacy was on its military DEATHBED!!!

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Title: Re: DID slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: Bison66 on February 09, 2019, 04:14:51 PM
Here's a book that claims to list 7,000 Africans/Blacks who were part of the Confederate Army.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51BUOrUJWGL._AC_UL115_.jpg)

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/1456412817/ref=pe_397970_258863180_em_1p_3_lm (https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/1456412817/ref=pe_397970_258863180_em_1p_3_lm)

The author admits straight up that VERY FEW were soldiers.

As part of my continuing research, I started with Tennessee (found a guy from my great grandmother's hometown county,
whose "master" is buried where she was enslaved) and went through Mississippi, Missouri and South Carolina to see
how many were listed as soldiers of one kind or another.

Out of the several hundred on those pages I found a couple of Privates and a Scout.

The rest were Servants, Teamsters, Blacksmiths, Body Servants, Cooks and Seamstresses, etc.  Several applied for
"veterans benefits" and were REJECTED, so...

Seems that the answer to the original question is MOOT because only a handful of Black folks allegedly
 fought for the Rebel cause.

I will leave my original (which incorrectly bought into the premise of the OP original title - which I have corrected)
post in this thread as it is, but it is clear to me now - after delving into the subject - that:
1) our Ancestors deep behind Confederate lines had NO CHOICE in most cases (as asserted by the originator
 of this thread)
2) those, especially in the border states, CHOSE to escape bondage, went north and many of the men and probably
a few of the women TOOK UP ARMS to defeat the Confederacy and free their People.

We have always resisted!!


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Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: keithbusting on February 10, 2019, 11:40:10 PM
Maybe one can pose the question to these slaves and free blacks in the next life whether fighting for the Confederate states of America was worth it. What did they really get for their contributions?                                                                                                                                     
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: Ken on February 11, 2019, 09:18:40 AM
No slaves " fought " for the south- they were brought there by their masters and served as cooks- You think dem white folks gonna give them guns- Negro please.
Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: Bison66 on February 11, 2019, 06:51:21 PM
Keith and Ken,

Pretty much!!


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Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: Maroon and Gray on February 12, 2019, 08:59:54 PM
you guys need provide some proof. 

if what you claim is true why did blacks show up and were welcomed at confederate veterans reunions.

it must be hard to realize what you were taught and believed about the civil war was 100 percent wrong.

i don't think so Y.  you can believe what you want and i will do the same.  you know the Doobie Bros had a powerful message with their epic hit "what a fool believes"..... :lmao:

------

'87, provide some proof.  back up what you believe.

-----

".....
'87, you have no proof they would not be set free if the south had won.

 I find it hilarious you conveniently 'forget' these transgressions by white folk in this country.

When has white America ever shown the ability to absorb empathy and compassion? Is there a single example in the quadruple-century-old history of white people in North America that demonstrates this theory works? Has it ever happened?

When the native Americans taught European settlers how to farm, fish and eat, the settlers turned around and stole the indigenous people’s land. Even when the first nation people huddled on reservations and signed peace treaties, America slaughtered them for raising their voices, insisting on their rights or even dancing.

America had to fight its bloodiest war with itself to end slavery. It needed federal troops to integrate, but only after terrorists bombed churches, busted heads and set buses on fire. And contrary to popular belief, the civil rights movement was not nonviolent. Black people were nonviolent. White people have simply managed to whitewash the black blood from the Edmund Pettus Bridge, the 16th Street Baptist Church, and Medgar Evers’ driveway.

In fact, Martin Luther King Jr. promoted fighting hate with love. He offered the exact same “courageous empathy” as Booker proposed and might have explained the need to eliminate racism more eloquently than any man who ever walked on the planet. And what happened when King “extended grace” to America, as Booker suggests?

A racist put a bullet in his face.
 
https://www.theroot.com/apparently-white-people-need-grace-and-empathy-from-bl-1832571677  

Like you y04185, white folk in America could care less for non-whites in this country.  Also Google all the treaties the U.S. government broke with the Native Americans.
 How you can say there is no proof the slaves wouldn't be granted their freedom is simply ridiculous. The whiteman's history is complete with his treachery and lying.  You can't even be honest with us on Onnidan about your political leanings.
Title: Re: slaves and free blacks did NOT fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: Bison66 on February 13, 2019, 10:55:00 AM
 :read:

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Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: Bison66 on February 21, 2019, 10:42:45 PM
This short video gives a bit of the history of General Patrick Cleburne's proposal to arm and promise freedom to enslaved Africans/Blacks if they fought for the South.  It does not mention that he was labeled a traitor and, despite his outstanding generalship, never got another star while other less distinguished general officers did.  Cleburne was an immigrant and did not own slaves.

He was killed in the November 1864 Battle of Franklin (south of Nashville, Tennessee) and his body was laid out on the portico of the Carnton plantation house where my great grandmother Mariah was enslaved.

The late and much esteemed Hari Jones is featured with his low-keyed but powerful destruction of the myth of our Ancestors fighting in any significant way or number for the Confederacy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_G1Mwc8MeNw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_G1Mwc8MeNw)

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Title: Re: why did slaves and free blacks fight for the confederate states of america
Post by: Bison66 on June 30, 2019, 04:02:02 PM
SoFlo!

People that defend confederate monuments under the guise of "history"-

Why don't we have Nat Turner busts, Grant elementary/middle/high schools and parks?

Why don't we have monuments to black slaves?

Why don't we have statues of Lincoln in every southern town?

Why aren't there southern counties named after union generals?

Where are the monuments to union soldiers?

Why were the majority of these monuments built during the Civil Rights era 1950s and 1960s?

The truth is this isn't "history" at all. It's "Confederate revisionist history".

The truth is it's a tribute to white supremacy.

Not one Confederate monument honors a person of color.

The truth is it the way southern whites lie to themselves about their heritage of treason, slavery and their philosophy that God made them superior to the black race.

They are wrong.

THIS was just excellent.

I came across it again looking for something else.

SoFlo's original work right here avoids the trap of buying into the premises of others without scrutiny or question. Just excellent!!!


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