oldsport, can you make any sense out of this

[y04185]

You have 2 families... "Joe Legal" and "Joe Illegal".
Both families have 2 parents, 2 children and live in California .                                                             
                                                                           
  "Joe Legal" works in construction, has a Social Security Number, and makes     
  $25.00 per hour with payroll taxes deducted.                             
                                                                           
  "Joe Illegal" also works in construction, has NO Social Security Number, and                                                                 
  gets paid $15.00 cash "under the table".                                   
                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
  Joe Legal.. $25..00 per hour x 40 hours = $1000.00 per week = $52,000 per year.                                                                   
  Now take 30% away for state and federal tax. Joe Legal now has $31,206.00                                                             
                                                                           
  Joe Illegal... $15.00 per hour x 40 hours = $600.00 per week = $31,200.00 per year.
  Joe Illegal pays no taxes.  Jose Illegal now has $31,200.00.       ( see below)                                 
                                               

  Joe Legal pays for Medical and Dental Insurance with limited coverage .. 
  $1000.00 per month = $12,000.00 per year. Joe Legal now has $19,231.00. 
                                                                           
  Joe Illegal has full Medical and Dental coverage through the state and 
  local clinics at a cost of $0.00 per year. Joe Illegal still has $31,200.00.
                                                                           
  Joe Legal makes too much money to be eligible for Food Stamps or Welfare
 so he pays for food... $1,000.00 per month = $12,000..00 per year. Joe Legal 
  now has $7,231.00.                                                           
                                                                           
  Joe Illegal has no documented income and is eligible for Food Stamps and Welfare.
 Joe Illegal still has $31,200.00.                                                               
                                                                           
  Joe Legal pays rent of $1,000.00 per month = $12,000.00 per year. 
 Joe Legal is now in the hole -<$4,769.00>.                                           
                                                                           
  Joe Illegal receives a $500 per month Federal rent subsidy, which entirely                                                                 
  pays his rent of $500.00 per month = $6,000.00 per year.
 Joe Illegal still has $31,200.00.                                                               
                                                                         
  Joe Legal now works overtime on Saturdays and gets a part time job after 
  work to make ends meet.                                                         
                                                                           
  Joe Illegal has nights and weekends off to enjoy with his family..       
                                                                       
  Joe Legal's and Joe Illegal's children both attend the same school.     
  Joe Legal pay for his children's lunches while Joe Illegal's children 
  get free government sponsored lunches.                                           
                                                                           
  Joe Legal's children go home after school. Joe Illegal's children have 
  an after school ESL program which, again, is provided free of charge.       
                                                                           
  Joe Legal and Joe Illegal both enjoy the same Police and Fire Services, 
  but  Joe Legal paid for them and Jose Illegal did not pay.

[Cholly]

Now... make sense out of THIS:

The reason Jose Illegal is here in the first place is to work and earn a HELLOVA lot more in California than he could in his native Mexico/Guatamala/El Salvador/Honduras/Panama (u-Pick).

He KNOWS he will be hired because he is willing to work for 1/3 what it would cost to pay an American to do the SAME job... even without benefits.

So he makes the long trek from Southern Mexico or other points south of the border to El Norte because he knows there are people here more than willing to exploit those willing to be exploited.

Now... and here is the ironic irony of all ironies; the people complaining the loudest about Jose Illegal and his ilk... ARE THE ONES WHO ARE EXPLOITING THEM THE MOST!!!

Just another example of hypocrisy from the morally corrupt right.

[uchighlander]

Now... make sense out of THIS:

The reason Jose Illegal is here in the first place is to work and earn a HELLOVA lot more in California than he could in his native Mexico/Guatamala/El Salvador/Honduras/Panama (u-Pick).

He KNOWS he will be hired because he is willing to work for 1/3 what it would cost to pay an American to do the SAME job... even without benefits.

So he makes the long trek from Southern Mexico or other points south of the border to El Norte because he knows there are people here more than willing to exploit those willing to be exploited.

Now... and here is the ironic irony of all ironies; the people complaining the loudest about Jose Illegal and his ilk... ARE THE ONES WHO ARE EXPLOITING THEM THE MOST!!!

Just another example of hypocrisy from the morally corrupt right.

Cholly....Cholly.....Cholly.....my how you can spin things. As everyone on this board knows....I live in California so I have a dog in this fight. I am one of the ones complaing about illegals....loud and long. I'm not exploiting them....I'm PAYING for them just like every tax payer in the state. Food stamps, health care, higher car insurance rates, ESL, bilingual ballots, free lunches, higher crime rates, overcrowded prisons.....you name it and I'm paying for it. Now explain to me how I'm exploiting these people. I'm the one being exploited. Now before you go off on that tired mantra about how their labor puts food on my table...I'm more than willing to pay higher food prices.....I could afford too because if I didn't have to support all the illegals my taxes would be significantly lower. GO VIKINGS!!!

[y04185]

uch, thank you for telling the truth.

[Cholly]

^^^ Yes; THANK YOU!!! Both of you!!!

You people are FINALLY starting to understand; to get it... you just don't know it yet.

You neo-cons are completely invested in an ideology that does NOT benefit you, but rather the rich and powerful people who in fact HIRED that Pied Piper to visit your towns in the first place.

Maybe ONE day you will wake up and get it... but NOT if you continue to remain hyperpartisan.

[Cholly]

BTW:

It's businesses that hire the bulk of those people who like Jose Illegal, come here for better economic opportunities.

Well... guess which party MOST business owners belong to.

Time to Wakie Wakie boys...........

[uchighlander]

BTW:

It's businesses that hire the bulk of those people who like Jose Illegal, come here for better economic opportunities.

Well... guess which party MOST business owners belong to.

Time to Wakie Wakie boys...........

My daddy always said that if you tell a lie long enough people will believe it. Next you are going to tell me that none of those millionare democratic congressman and senators don't own businesses. Bottom line Cholly it's the average taxpayer in the State of California that is getting screwed and until the liberal controlled legislature does something we will continue to be screwed. It's not big business.....it's the liberals who pimp the latino vote in this state that are exploiting people. GO VIKINGS!!!

[y04185]

uch has spoken the truth again.

[Twin Que ASU]

Finally an interesting topic .  This is not as black white or left and right as most pundits want it to be.  Unfortunately the back and forth rhetoric you guys are spewing in why we are where we are with this.  Ask yourselves this, do you really want to stop illegal immigration?  Why? Everyone benefits as well as everyone loses that pay taxes.  Both the upper echelon left and right has benefitted by looking the other way.  The real issue should be how can we tax these people and keep the tax money home on this side of the border?   No one is really trying to fix this as long as pockets continue to get lined.

[Cholly]

Now see.. here is where being hyperpartisan IMPAIRS your thinking:

My daddy always said that if you tell a lie long enough people will believe it. Next you are going to tell me that none of those millionare democratic congressman and senators don't own businesses.

NO, uchi; I'm NOT going to tell you that. I'm going to tell you the following: look up the definition of non-sequitur and explain why it is relevent to your response. *

Bottom line Cholly it's the average taxpayer in the State of California that is getting screwed and until the liberal controlled legislature does something we will continue to be screwed.

Didn't that LIBERAL CONTROLLED LEGISLATURE pass laws AGAINST hiring Jose Illegal and his compadres? Hmmmm?

It's not big business.....it's the liberals who pimp the latino vote in this state that are exploiting people. GO VIKINGS!!!

You wouldn't happen to be implying that ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS VOTE would ya uchi?  

Because if you are talking abut NATIVE BORN Latinos, they fell the SAME way about illegals as the rest of us do.

So uchi, son... the next time yo come to a mental gun fight, PLEASE leave the feather duster at home.

[y04185]

stop lying cholly.

[Cholly]

Please specifically detail what it is in my response that you think is untrue....

[uchighlander]

Now see.. here is where being hyperpartisan IMPAIRS your thinking:

My daddy always said that if you tell a lie long enough people will believe it. Next you are going to tell me that none of those millionare democratic congressman and senators don't own businesses.

NO, uchi; I'm NOT going to tell you that. I'm going to tell you the following: look up the definition of non-sequitur and explain why it is relevent to your response. *

Bottom line Cholly it's the average taxpayer in the State of California that is getting screwed and until the liberal controlled legislature does something we will continue to be screwed.

Didn't that LIBERAL CONTROLLED LEGISLATURE pass laws AGAINST hiring Jose Illegal and his compadres? Hmmmm?

It's not big business.....it's the liberals who pimp the latino vote in this state that are exploiting people. GO VIKINGS!!!

You wouldn't happen to be implying that ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS VOTE would ya uchi?  

Because if you are talking abut NATIVE BORN Latinos, they fell the SAME way about illegals as the rest of us do.

So uchi, son... the next time yo come to a mental gun fight, PLEASE leave the feather duster at home.

Cholly....you may be well informed about some things but about California.....NOT!! The California legislature has not passed any laws against hiring illegals. You completely missed my point about the liberals pimping the latino vote. If the liberal legislature passed any laws cracking down on illegals they would be voted out of office in a heart beat.....hence.....no crackdown. You are absolutely wrong about American born latinos feeling the same way as the rest of us. Have you seen the pro-illegal protests and all the mexican flags? Have you heard about activist sudents at some local high schools taking down the American flag and raising the mexican flag? We even have a local latino legislator who wants to make his district a safe haven for illegals. You don't hear about this stuff because the liberal national media won't talk about it so as much as you think you know about California.....you know very little. GO VIKINGS!!!

[drette j 77]

One thing tho, guys. Illegal aliens DO use Social Security Numbers. They just use numbers that are sometimes bought on their way across the border. This can someitmes mean that they are actually using active Social Security numbers held by  citizens. Be sure that you check your yearly earnings statements sent to you by Social Security to makes sure that your earnings are posted correctly.

 Unfortunatley lots of times Illegal aliens work and earn wages that are reported to these active numbers that actually belong to real citizens. I know because I have had to be invovled in "unscrambling" earnings records in my work for Social Security.

There is blame enough to go around on this one. The companies sometimes don't want to verify that the person they hire actually goes with that Social Security number and won't unless it is brought to their attention that someone in their employ is using an incorrect Social Security number. Then it can take several months to correct the records and by that time that person has gone onto another company that thrives off of this type of labor pool.

 I don't know how it is in Cailfornia, but in Alabama if a person applies for any type of welfare benefits and the SSN's don't verify(along with submission of specific identification) they don't get benefits. We have to verify all documents used to obtain Social Security numbers now. Back when I was in college, all a person had to do was to apply for a number without showing ANY ID to get a number.  The process has been very different for a very long time now. Still we will always have problems with this until the law is applied equally on BOTH ENDS, to the Illegal aliens and to the businesses that hire them while looking the other way about their illegal status.

[thirdeye]

One has to have legal status (verifiable by a social security card, original birth certificates, or citizenship papers (green cards) )to receive benefits such as health insurance, foodstamps, and any sort of financial assistance. So Joe Illegal would not receive benefits.  But,  Joe Illegals children who are born in this country may receive benefits, and the parents may receive benefits on behalf of those children born here because they are American citizens.
Second, the United States relaxes and harshens immigration laws and policies based on productive transitions.  When cheap labor was necessary to fuel industrial growth in this country, Joe illegal was welcomed and given legal status even through political asylee status etc.  Now with NAFTA, GATT, and other globalization policies that are allowing corporations to go into other countries (Mexico) and exploit their labor and resources in their own countries where they do not have to worry about comparable costs of labor, social security, unemployment, benefits and labor laws, now they want to send people (who come to the US to flee oppression in their own countries) back. 
Better than focusing on Joe Illegal...wouldn't a better discussion be one that focuses on these American corporations that are doing more damage to the sustainability and livelihood of American workers (by taking jobs OUT of the US) than all of the Joe Illegals could ever do.